Christians at Site, God’s Emotion, Discrepancies, Inerrancy,
Enemies, Archaeology, Creation, Fall, Jews/Christians/Muslims, Moral Absolutes,
Babies, Women…
Response to comment: “Why do so many Christians come here?”
(Originally posted at EvilBible.com)
As a Christian, you may be surprised to know that we often have more resistance
sharing the gospel of God’s grace with pious, religious folks than from
agnostics and atheists. My complaint toward atheists, agnostics—and Christians
is that they do not spend enough time in the word of God.
When people have become religioned-up, they put their trust in a church but not
in the person of Jesus Christ. They, like you are headed for hell. You know it.
They don’t. Maybe the atheists and agnostics who read posts here are more
receptive to the message of hope. I know you have no peace (Isa 48:22) so why
not reach out.
Someone suggested at this site that we Christians share the gospel because we
are under an obligation, that it is a mandate of obedience. That is true enough,
but do not confuse our command with the cults and the ‘isms. We share the gospel
because we want to—we love Jesus. We know that He wants you saved and so we
speak (2 Pet 3:9). But understand that we are under grace not law. We walk with
freedom in Christ. Christianity is a walk with the Lord. It about relation, not
religion.
Incidentally, I wonder if you knew God more if you would love Him. Or, let me
put it this way: If God did exist, would you love Him?
Response to comment: "As for calling my deeds evil. You don't know me..."
Man is evil (Ro 3:10, 23). By our nature, we have wicked hearts--you, me everyone. Without Jesus men do not have peace--Jesus is the Prince of Peace. God gives a general mercy to man but a deep, abiding peace which passes all understanding come from Christ alone (Phil 4:7).
Response to comment: “Why do so many Christians come here if they know exactly
what they'll be facing? It's utterly pointless to say the very least.”
Love hopes all things (1 Cor 13:7). I am not calling you lovely in any way, and
by the way, neither am I. But there is hope while we are on this side of the
grave if you humble yourself before God.
God honors those who honor Him. We Christians try to get people to see that
there is a problem in the world. It isn’t global warming (God is in control. Rm
8:28). It is sin. We live in a fallen and wicked world. Read any newspaper. It
does not take too long to see that man is wicked and depraved.
We could go on an on about how God murders innocent men women and children, but
the claim has no basis. God is gracious enough to make Himself known to us by
His word. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for
reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16).”
Response to comment: “I noticed that a majority of the Christians who came here
ended up getting banned.”
Christians aren’t the ones banning voices or shutting down websites. We have
truth on our side and we defend it.
Response to comment: “Christians always argue that non-Christians should stay
out of their business and let them do their preaching, but yet they have no
problem sticking their damn nose into our business by telling us not to preach
our anti-Christianity beliefs.”
Christians fight to reclaim the founding of our country as a Judeo-Christian
people whose moral underpinnings come from the Bible. Without God, we believe
that our country will descend even lower. “What the world calls diversity God
calls perversity (Rogers).”
If Christians stop telling others of the love and forgiveness available to them when they put their trust in Christ, they are apathetic not loving. Christians share their faith because they would like others to know the love of Jesus.
We do not say do not preach your anti-Christian beliefs (liberals silence
critics). We say state your case and reason with us (Isa 1:18).
We believe that we have the truth of scripture and in the end our argument will
win. We are not out to win the argument but loose you.
Response to comment: “If you really believe your God, please be ready to face
it's anger - you have lied. Your God directly commanded the death of infants
multiple times in your Bible. You know this and lied about it, thus breaking a
direct commandment from your God.”
We agree that God gets angry (Ro 1:18). God is not an ‘it’. The Bible describes God as:
living, personal, relational, good and loving (Bob Enyart,
Battle Royal X, theologyonline.com). God grieved that He had made man
on the earth (Gn 6:6) but not every man (v.8).
Response to comment: “I have far more respect for a very devout Christian I have
known for over 20 years-- He at least admits that he cannot explain the
discrepancies in the Bible and tries to live his life as best he can by his
faith.”
Christians believe that scripture is the inerrant, inspired and infallible word
of God. If we believed it had errors, we would not have faith in it. If your friend has found what he
believes to be discrepancies in the Bible, he should sort those out. Perhaps
he is a cultural Christian, filled with religious activity but not an abiding faith in
Christ. Can you really put your trust in Christ if you believe that the Bible
has errors? Jesus affirmed the teaching of scripture. He believed it. Christians
do not have a blind faith. The Holy Spirit promises to teach the believer (Jn
14:26).
Response to comment: “The Bible was written by man…”
Have you read it? You would quickly see that men cannot write such works. Men
cannot predict events in the future which will come to pass by God’s guiding
hand. Men do not die for a lie.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (Ti 3:16-17, NKJV)."
* The Bible is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21).
* the Bible is made up of 66 different books that were written over 1600 years (from approximately 1500 BC to AD 100) by more than 40 kings, prophets, leaders, and followers of Jesus. the Old Testament has 39 books (written approximately AD 45-100). The Hebrew Bible has the same text as the English Bible's Old Testament, but divides an and arranges it differently.
* The Old Testament was written mainly in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The New Testament was written in Greek.
* The books of the Bible were collected and arranged and recognized as inspired sacred authority by councils of rabbis and councils of church leaders based on careful guidelines.
* Before the printing press was invented, the Bible was copied by hand. the Bible was copied very accurately, in many cases by special scribes who developed intricate methods of counting words and letter to insure that no error had been made.
* The Bible was the first book ever printed on the printing press with moveable type (Gutenberg Press, 1455, Latin Bible)."
* There is much evidence that the Bible we have today is remarkably true to the original writings. Of the thousands of copies made by hand before AD 1500, more than 5,300 Greek manuscripts from the New Testament alone still exist today. The test of the Bible is better preserved than the writings of Caesar, Plato, or Aristotle.
* The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed the astonishing reliability of some of the copies of the Old testament made over the years. Although some spelling variations exist, no variation affects basic Bible doctrines.
* As the Bible was carried to other countries, it was translated into the common language of the people by scholars who wanted to know God's Word. Today there are still 2,000 groups with no Bible in their own language.
* By AD 200, the Bible was translated into seven languages; by AD 500, 13 languages; by AD 900, 17 languages; by AD 1400, 28 languages; by 1800, 57 languages; by 1900, 537 languages; by 1980, 1,100 languages...
Full text: How We Got the Bible
* Who really wrote the Gospels? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Or were they written by people who were utterly unconnected with the eyewitnesses as some books and TV shows claim? Were they written centuries after Jesus’ death and resurrection, long after Jesus’ followers had died? Were there gospels that were included in the New Testament—and later removed?
Full text: The Gospels "Lost" & Found
* Is the Bible an ancient document that has been tampered with? Has it been edited many times over the centuries and now is filled with errors?
Full text: Why Trust the Bible?
Response to comment: “So the babies were not innocent. What
were the babies guilty of? Merely existing? [Ex 12:29-30]."
God has enemies. He commanded His children to defeat those enemies so that they
would not rise up against Him in the future. This is an act of His mercy toward
His people. When His children disobey, it harms them later.
People think that they are nicer than God (e.g. against the death penalty or
acceptance of homosexuality, etc.). When God says do something, He means to help
yourself. When God says don’t do something, He means don’t hurt yourself.
Read Bob Enyart’s
Nicer Than God.
Memorable quotes:
“Jesus is a beacon to real seekers. But for those wanting to get lost, Christ is
like a street sign that has been reversed by a troublemaker.”
"The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’" (Ps. 53:1). Thus, atheists
are fools and it is cruel to withhold this knowledge from them.”
I am not calling you a fool, God is. Back to reply on Ex 12:29-30: Babylon
symbolizes the world system man has built in defiance of God. Jerusalem and
Babylon are contrasting cities: One is the chosen city of God, the other the
wicked city of man. The city of God will last forever, but the rebellious city
of man will ultimately be destroyed (Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17–18). Wiersbe, Warren
W.: Be Comforted. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1996, c1992 (An Old Testament
Study), S. Is 13:1.
This verse parallels Ex 20:5-6: “you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but
showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments (Ex
20:5-6, NKJV).”
And Re 18:20. God will have a final victory over His enemies: “Rejoice over her,
O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”
(Re 18:20, NKJV).
The point is, often men think they are more merciful and wiser than God. They
are not.
Read:
God and the Death
Penalty
Agag was a king of the Amalekites. He was taken captive and
spared by Saul (against God’s command), then rightfully slain by Samuel (1 Sam
15:8,33). Saul had disobeyed God, thinking much like modern man that he is more
merciful and wiser than God.
Skip ahead to the book of Esther. Agagites are descendants of Agag. The father
of Haman, an enemy of the Jews is referred to as an Agagite (Esth. 3:1,10).
Haman sent out a decree to kill all men women and children of the Jewish people
(Esth. 3:13).
We have a classic battle between good and evil, then and now. You argue for evil
and we argue for good (thankfully God is on our side).
You may say: “Everyone always thinks that God is on their side.” God is on the
side of Israel. They are his chosen people, which is why of course everybody
hates them. Men hate God. Men hate His people. It is the satanic and evil heart
that harbors anti-Semitism.
God is not a murderer of babies. God created life. He may take life.
His ways are higher than our ways (Isa. 55:9)
not lower.
Reply to comment: “I've seen Roman records of things as menial as some poor
slob having to recover and count each nail used to build a scaffold that was
erected to repair damage to an aqueduct... That was signed by his superior and
then inspected and sealed by the chief architect in residence in Pilate's
garrison. Then it was sealed up in a room with a few thousand other bits of
bureaucratic uselessness and buried in an earthquake. It was found in 1911."
If the Romans took the time and material to have something [that] worthless
written down, checked and sealed, you'd think that even [one] person would have
written something down about someone coming back form the dead!”
And they did.: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. We have the testimony of Jesus
Christ and the apostles.
Christians love archeology and the Bible. We can’t wait to see what they dig up
next. Read the following article. It was such in insignificant transaction
recorded in the Bible. Nabu was a pencil pusher for King Nebuchadnezzar. We
really don’t spend much time on him in Bible study. Archeologists dug up his
receipt recorded on a tiny tablet. God keeps you guessing.
Read
Tiny Tablet Proves Old Testament
Response to: “Of course, no one was around to see ‘creation’.”
You see His creation too: “The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the
people see his glory (Ps 97:6, KJV).
Further reading:
Answers in Genesis
Even Darwin would not believe his 150 year old science today.
He said that if we could not find transitional species his whole theory would
break down. It has. What are you going to do with that mantis shrimp? Why does
the inside of a T-Rex bone look like my last BBQ?
Further reading:
Evolution vs Creation
Response to comment: “Not only is this not just in any court
of law [God commanding the killing of evil people], if this God knew they would
have evil thoughts or eventually murder and deserve death then why did he create
them that way in the first place?”
We are now a fallen creation since sin in the garden. God loves us and He’s made
a way for our return to Him. He would like to spend eternity with us even though
in our sin state we are not lovely in any way. Even babies are born as sinners:
“I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me (Ps. 51:5,
NASB). Although a baby has not had a chance to commit great sin, he is by nature
a sinner. God cursed the ground not man (Gn 13:7). But in this now fallen world
filled with death, disease and suffering man has descended since that time. What
was the first thing that God did when Adam and Eve sinned? He clothed them in
bloody skins (a foreshadow of His Son’s bloody death, a covering for their sin).
He provided a way. He still provides a way back to the loveliness of the garden.
He will create a new heaven and a new earth to live with those who love Him (Re
21:1).
Response to comment: “If we believe that God can kill at will, even young
children, and we are to become like God, perfect as He is, then we will think
that it is ok to kill as well.”
No we won’t. God created life so He can take life. We did not create
life so we cannot rightly take life without cause. Government is commanded
to put the wicked to death: "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed Gn 9:6, NASB).”
We will be made new in God’s image (2 Co 5:17), but we will not ever be a God,
as in Mormonism.
Christians claim that God's ways are higher than our
ways not lower. We do not claim to have
the same rights as God. If God takes life it is right but if we murder, it
is wrong (Isa. 55:9).
Response to comment: “Jews, Christians and Muslims all adhere to the Bible.”
Jews reject that Jesus was Messiah (except Messianic Jews who have been
born-again); Christians accept the deity of and put their trust in Christ; and
Muslims worship pagan moon god and add a few themes from Christianity,
perverting it. Christian recognize Jesus as the promised Messiah of Judaism.
Response to comment: “God has created [evil]… I wonder how much more peaceful
humans might be if there never was a Bible? If we can see past the evils of the
Bible and realize God does not sanction war, killing or even the pride and
racism of believing in a 'chosen people' or a 'holy land' maybe we can all solve
the greatest downfalls of humanity.”
Commentary on Ro 7:13:
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it
might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the
commandment might become exceeding sinful [Rom. 7:13].
Is this a strange paradox? Is it a perversion of a good thing? The commandment
was totally incapable of communicating life. Man must have recourse to help from
the outside, because the commandment intensified the awfulness of sin. ( McGee,
J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson,
1997, c1981, S. 4:692).
Further reading:
What Christianity Has Done for the World
God created the universe. If He wishes to choose a people He has every right.
Response to comment: “Humans have enacted moral laws
throughout history without the help of the Bible, just look in ancient Japan,
China, India or anywhere that the Bible did not take credit for everything.
There is no "absolute" moral law, they all vary from culture to culture. Murder,
the most heinous of all; is not even absolute, this discussion is perfect
example of what is believed to be murder and what is not and who is allowed to
murder and who is not…”
There are no absolutes? Absolutely? It would not seem desirable to me to
ultimately merge into spiritual nothingness. Who wants to life over and
over again with an ultimate goal of non-existence? That is the
ultimate cruelty.
Further reading:
Christianity, Cults & Religions
How could you claim that “murder [is] the most heinous [of
breaking of moral law] of all”? You are making a truth claim but you claim there
is not ultimate truth. These are self-refuting statements. There is an ultimate
truth and it comes from God. It is written on our hearts and your conscious
testifies to it which is why you know that murder is wrong (Ro 2:15). No one is
permitted to murder according to God. We are His creation and we are responsible
to Him. God does not murder, He kills. He is permitted to kill because He
created life. He can take life. He is committed to righteousness so all that He
does is right and good. Man’s law is called human secularism. It is inferior to
God’s law. When we disagree with God, we are wrong not Him. But He will reason
with us if we come to Him in humility (Isa 1:18).
Jews wanted power, Greeks wanted wisdom. Paul said power is in Christ crucified.
The greatest demonstration of power is the salvation of the soul. “For I am not
ashamed of the gospel, because it is God's power for the salvation of everyone
who believes (Ro 1:16, ISV).” Through the cross the power of God is revealed.
You know God loves you and God cares. God displays His wisdom. That is wisdom a
child can know. God speaks through the cross. You will never know God until you
know the power of the cross. To the Jew it was a stumbling block to the Greek it
was foolishness (1 Cor 1:23). Wisdom is in the cross. God speaks to us through
the cross. It is the power of God to save (1 Cor 1:18). If it isn’t who would
trust God, who sacrificed His own precious Son? The world hates salvation
through the cross. The world does not like the gospel of a bloody cross. That is
an offense to some. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin
(Heb 9:22). Billy Graham was told one man that he might make a good preacher
someday if he would stop speaking about that bloody cross. He spoke of it all
the more (Rogers).
Response to statement: “It is fine to smash an infants' skull against the rocks
but not fine to have a non viable fetus aborted.”
Perhaps you are speaking of Psalm 137:9.
No, it is not fine to smash infant's skulls against rocks. That is why the
psalmist expressed such outrage toward those who did do such things. I
seems only natural that the psalmist would want vengeance in kind against his
enemies.
God has enemies. What a man sews, he reaps (Ga 6:7). It is possible that we will
bear the scar of our sins, us and our children. We can be forgiven by God but
the consequences of sin are not erased. If we commit murder we can be forgiven
but the victim does not come back to life. We bear the results of our actions.
We can be in fellowship with God now but there were some things that we did
before we became saved. We can’t think “I can do what I want to do and God will
make it all better.” Be careful not to do something that you can be forgiven for
but what you can never forget. Samson in the Bible was forgiven by God, but it
took time for his hair to grow back. He did not get his eyes back. Failure is
not the product of a moment. It takes time to descent away from God in
disobedience and rebellion. The children of God’s enemies will suffer along with
their parents.
Righteous killing vs. murder of innocent life (e.g. “non-viable fetus”). What
you call a “non-viable fetus” God calls precious human life. Once the egg is
fertilized that human being has a soul (Ps. 139, Ps 51). Man is not permitted to
murder. Rape? Incest? No. We do not punish the child for the crimes of his
father. A hundred years ago if a man raped a woman, he would be killed and the
baby would be protected. Today, the baby is murdered and the man is protected.
Sexual immorality is powerful. It causes mother’s to murder their own babies so
that men can use them like whores. The women’s liberation movement was a great
success.
God created life so He may righteously take life. When man takes life without cause it is murder. God's ways are higher than our ways (Isa. 55:9) not lower.
Text originally posted at EvilBible.com