Reinventing Jesus, Gothcha Moment, God Can Write, Christian Martyr--an Oxymoron, All Ya Need is...Some Wisdom from a Leather Backed Book, Come Let Us Reason

Response to comments: 

"Do you ever wonder how different Christianity might look today if some of the other texts had made it into the canon [of scripture] and some of the accepted ones had not made it?"

"I studied the Gospel of Thomas and I was...impressed...with the Jesus that shows up there."

"I find that the Jesus depicted in the Gospel of Thomas is much more believable as a wise teacher and holy man than the Jesus depicted in the four accepted Gospels."

We cannot reinvent Jesus and hope to end up in a good place.  There is evidence for only one Jesus, the Jesus of scripture.  Only the true Jesus can save.  An intellectual ascension to the historical Jesus will not produce a saving faith.    

Now, there are many reasons why these apocryphal books are not part of our Bible. Let me mention just a few. First of all, they contain teachings that are clearly unbiblical — for example, they encourage prayers for the dead, teach salvation by works, and they even include an account where God is shown to be assisting someone in a lie. Second, there have been a number of authoritative testimonies against the acceptance of these books, including those from the Jewish scholars of Jamnia, as well as many of the church fathers and scholars, like Athanasius and Jerome. And, of course, these books were never directly quoted by Jesus or by any of the New Testament writers. Finally, it’s important to note that even the Catholic church itself didn’t canonize them until the Council of Trent, after the Reformation began.

In conclusion, while these apocryphal books do give us some insight about the events that occurred during the period between the Old and New Testaments, they are definitely not the Word of God. So, it is very important for all of us to recognize that there is a vast distinction between the apocrypha, or the “hidden books,” and the Canon of Scripture. 

Full text:  Hank Hanegraaff:  The Apocryphal Books of the Catholic Bible

Response to comment:  "I was trying to be nice. I just thought they'd understand him better."

To "be nice" tell people the truth.  Share the truth about:  who Jesus is, why He came, what He did, and what He still does today.  Being nice is revealing Jesus as He is, not as we wish Him to be.  Believing on the name of Jesus means knowing exactly who He is and discovering if He is worth trusting.  If we believe in some other Jesus (e.g. the spirit brother of Lucifer of Mormonism or the archangel Michael of Jehovah's witnesses), it means the difference between life and death.  It's not nice to send people to their death.  Being nice is great.  Being nicer than God is wrong.  Jesus asked:  "Who do men say I am?"  (Mk. 8:27, ASV).  He is the great "I Am" (Jewish reference to deity).  Read:  Nicer than God by Bob Enyart. 

God it Triune (Doctrine of the Trinity):
Matt. 28:19; Matt. 3:16, 17; Gen. 1:26;
(“us”: Gen. 11:7)

The Deity of Christ (Christ is truly God):
John 1:1; 5:18; 5:23; 8:58; 17:5; 20:28;
Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Phil. 2:8-11; Heb. 1:1-4; 13:8; Rom. 9:5;
1 John 5:20

The Physical Resurrection of Christ:
Luke 24:39-44; John 20:27, 28; Mark 16:14;
I Cor. 15:15

The Physical Return of Christ:
Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:30; I Thess. 4:16, 17;
Zech. 12:10

The Existence of Hell and Eternal Punishment:
Rev. 20:15; Matt. 5:22; 8:11, 12; 13:42, 50; Rev. 14:9-11

The Final State of Satan:
Rev. 20:10; Matt. 25:41

Human Government Ordained by God:
Rom. 13:1-7

The Existence of the Soul:
Isa. 55:3; I Cor. 6:20; Acts 7:59; Job 32:8; Gen. 1:26
(Man created in the image of God: I Cor. 11:7);
Matt. 26:38

The Complete Satisfaction of Christ’s Work:
(Infinite Atonement): Rom. 5:10, 11, 17, 19;
John 1:29, 6:44; Rev. 13:8; Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:22;
I Peter 2:24; Col. 1:20; II Cor. 5:21
 

Response to comment:  "Gotcha. I knew it as Free Will theism and equate it with some of the more primitive interpretations of scripture...disappointing..."

Earlier, our discussion was one of open theism.  Free will is redundant.  Will is sufficient.  The open theism debate is not "primitive".  It is a slow and painstaking process as Christians attempt to expel pagan Greek mythology from Christianity.   

Response to comment:  "Why should anyone believe that these nameless, mostly unknown characters, could recognize any inspired Scripture (leaving aside the source of that inspiration)?"

If people in the Bible are unknown to you, try reading it so that they become known.  We can learn from it (2 Tim 3:16).  How could people recognize the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?  By being indwelling by the Holy Spirit (being born again) and allowing Him to be your teacher.  Only the Holy Spirit brings understanding to the mind of a person. 

You had asked that we set aside that source of inspiration.  Without the Holy Spirit we are totally disarmed.  People can read the Bible all day long, but without the Holy Spirit, they will not understand.  It is the Holy Spirit who makes things real to you (Jn 14:26).  But the things of the spirit are foolishness to those perishing (1 Cor 1:18).   Without the Holy Spirit being your teacher,you only educate a "clever devil" as Adriane Rogers likes to say.  The Bible is about God's redemptive plan for man.  It matters what you believe about the Bible, about Jesus, and about the resurrection.  "If you get it wrong about Jesus,  it doesn't matter what else you get right." ~ Adrian Rogers

God is able to guide and direct men to write some things down about Him. 

Response to comment:  "I doubt that anyone here cares if you are Christian or not, so you can drop the martyr pretense."

As I write this, I am currently banned from the site.  It is liberal who seeks to silence the critic.  Many will be offended; Christians will be hated...and delivered up to tribulation...(Mt 24:9)...and killed (Mt 24:9-10).

The reality is, Christians are hated and martyred throughout the world everyday.  We have been given much and it will cost much.  There may come a day when we are dragged out of churches and silenced.  See Cause of Christ:  Christian Martyrs. 

Response to comment:  "I am still waiting for an explanation of why we should take seriously anything the Bible has to say, but all you seem to be capable of doing is quoting the book."

"All you can do is quote scripture..."  Apart from what John Lennon says, scripture is all you need.  I prefer the artist who got himself "some wisdom from a leather backed book" (Phil Wickham).

We have:

• Specific revelation (Genesis 1:1), God's word given to man. 
• General revelation of creation "The heavens declare His righteousness, And all the peoples have seen His glory (Ps 97:6, NASB)."  You can see and ordered and miraculous world out there--big things like stars and galaxies; and small things like the DNA code. 
• An internal testimony, the law of God written on our hearts (2 Cor 3:2).  You know right from wrong.  There is an ultimate truth and an ultimate reality.         

When you hear:  "There is no ultimate truth."  You can ask:  "Ultimately is that true?"

When you hear:  "There is no right or wrong."  You can ask:  "Is that right or wrong?"

When you hear:  "There is no truth."  You can ask:  "Is that true?"

These are not word games, they are self-refuting statements.  Men will do anything, think anything to avoid God. 

Response to comment:  "Living too much in fairy tales may be distracting us from taking care of our planet."

When you do not worship God, you do not worship nothing you worship something else.  Do you realize when you worship the planet you are worshipping dirt?  You are a dirt-worshipper (Enyart).  Living too much for dirt distracts us from God.  God will take care of the dirt (Gn 15:2).   

Response to comment:  "Christians in Croatia and Northern Ireland murdering people for their religion; not to mention all the witch hunters, inquisition torturers, crusaders, jihadists, and other murderers for God throughout history.  Just look at your bloody Old Testament if you want to see religious people committing all manner of vicious atrocities!  Without religion a good person will still do good and a bad person will still do bad, but it takes religion to make a good person do bad..." 

"When critics of Christianity
make such a claim, they typically will cite the Crusades,1 along with the Inquisition, as supporting
evidence. Muslims, atheists, and New Age believers alike, among others, make full use of the Crusades in
their efforts to dismiss Christian truth claims....

...the Crusades ultimately fell seriously short of accepted Christian standards
for a just war, despite the fact that they were undertaken for largely noble reasons...

...These dark annals of church
history are fair game should Hollywood choose to shine a light on them. It is not fair game, however, to distort
the facts, capitalizing on the public’s ignorance of history, all for the purpose of striking a low blow at
Christianity....

...The jihad is intrinsic to the sacred Muslim texts,
including the divine Qur’anic revelation itself, whereas the Crusades were circumscribed historical events
subjected to (ongoing and meaningful) criticism by Christians themselves. Unlike the espousal of jihad in
the Qur’an, the constituent texts of Christianity, the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, do not contain a
form fruste [sic] institutionalization of the Crusades. The Bible sanctions the Israelites’ conquest of Canaan, a
limited domain; it does not sanction a permanent war to submit all the nations of humanity to a uniform
code of religious law….The Crusades as an historical phenomenon were a reaction to events resulting from
over 450 years of previous jihad campaigns....

...The fact that the New Testament in particular never enjoins a holy war needs to be considered much
more carefully than it often is. Article: JAI151.  Muslim Jihad, Christian Crusades:  Which Came First? Christian Research Institute.  Article first appeared in the From the Editor column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 29, number 3 (2006).

           Full text:  Muslim Jihad, Christian Crusades:  Which came first?

You claim:  "Without religion a good person will still do good and a bad person will still do bad, but it takes religion to make a good person do bad..."  The Bible says that no one is good, no not one (Ro 3:12).  There is a general grace given to man.  Just because a man can be civil, it does not mean that he is acceptable by God's standards.  Each of us is separated from God because of sin.  We all fall short of God's glory (Ro 3:23).  God's eyes are too pure to look upon evil (Hab 1:13).  God proved His love in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Ro 5:8).  He is able to wash us whiter than snow (Ps 51:7).  Then we are able to grow in grace and knowledge (2 Pet 3:18).  If we are faithful until we die, we receive a crown of life (Re 2:10).

Response to comment:  "You clearly are of the opinion that we're atheists because, miraculously, we've never been exposed to the superstitions to which you subscribe, and that we'll be overwhelmed by your posts and convert as a result."

"Few" will receive life (Mt 7:13) but love hopes all things (1 Cor 13:7).   

Response to comment:  "Really. Go away. You're annoying. Your God is make- believe.  If it makes you happy, fine, but keep it to yourself and leave us [alone]."

It is called apathy not love to "go away" or keep Christianity to ourselves. 

Response to comment:  "[W]e are concerned that there are some - like you - who are so blinded by their faith that they don't see that they are defending something absolutely unjustifiable. And the Bible is full of stories like that. Take the Midianites for example. The Hebrews, fresh out of Egypt, found them in their path and slaughtered all the men. Moses was not satisfied with that and sent them back to kill every woman and every young boy, while all the virgin girls were taken back as slaves. Call that justifiable? merciful?"

I once was blind and now I see.  If you read the Bible, would you cheer for God's people or God's enemies?  We should chose to be on God's side (Jos 24:15). 

A brief history of the Midianites: 

Excited by Moab against Israel. Nu 22:4.

Response to comment:  "Take Cecil B. Demille. One of his greatest works was the film The Ten Commandments. He was so distressed by the idea that his God repeatedly hardened pharaoh's heart even after he had agreed to let the Hebrews go that he invented a woman - Nefertiri - and made her harden pharaoh's heart instead. Way to go Cecil."

In the movie Pharoh's wife claims that she is able to harden Pharaoh's heart.  No doubt, most wives probably could work toward that end.  But Pharaoh didn't need any help.  His heart was already hardened--in scripture and in the movie.  God merely revealed his heart.  God does not have to lift a finger to reveal man's sin.  Man does that well on his own.  God will cover that sin if men will repent and come by faith to Christ.  Pharaoh, portrayed by Yul Brynner, is a bad guy throughout the movie as well he should be. 

Incidentally, although it is an Old Testament story, the director added artistic foreshadows of Christ (e.g. the alabaster jar and quoting the "pearl of great price").  It is worth seeing once a year, especially for those who fail to humble themselves before the Lord.

Response to comment:  "You believe what you were raised to believe....Do you have anything to offer other than what amounts to: if you believe what you've been told is in the Bible, then you'll believe in what you're told is in the Bible?"

I was raised as a Roman Catholic.  We did not read our Bible.  We certainly never heard Paul and his gospel of grace.  We learned about a different Jesus, a different gospel and a different way of salvation than historical, biblical Christians.  God will give you every opportunity to be saved whether you live on a desert island alone or in the midst of enemy territory who teach another faith.  Hindus, Muslims and Jews all over the world have come to Christ by faith.  A person can live in a culturally Christian land and never become a Christian, for example coming by works.  We are without excuse (Ro 2:1). 

  A few housekeeping items...

Response to comment:  "I find it simply amazing how much improved your spelling and grammar have become in just a few short days. And you thought you couldn't learn anything from atheists."

I would like to thank the people at EvilBbible.com and About.com for the debate.  Thank you also for the numerous spelling and grammar errors.  

Text originally posted at EvilBible.com & About.com

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