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Response to comment [from a Satanist]:  "Where do these pictures come from? Presumably from pro-lifers digging through trash. They then pose the corpses of dead  children...Handle the dead bodies of these children...Presumably--hopefully--provide these children a burial...Then parade the pictures of the defenseless dead in broad daylight...Victims of Full text are posed, splayed, degraded, and cheapened by those who are left to speak for them. For shock value. Shocking, yes. And for all the wrong reasons. Pretty sad state of affairs."

The people who took these photos of aborted babies did go through the trash.  They were "knee deep in blood", Bob Enyart said on his radio program (BEL).  They took these pictures to educate people about the horrors of Full text.  I understand that they left the babies in the trash so that so that they could return another day without suspicion to gather more evidence.

In World War II General Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, saw the genocidal death camps as they marched into Western Germany.  "General Eisenhower understood that many people would be unable to comprehend the full scope of this horror. He also understood that any human deeds that were so utterly evil might eventually be challenged or even denied as being literally unbelievable. For these reasons he ordered that all the civilian news media and military combat camera units be required to visit the camps and record their observations in print, pictures and film. As he explained to General Marshall, “I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to ‘propaganda.’...”  Full text:   Ike and the Death Camps

Those who take pictures of aborted babies are on the right.  Those who take pictures of dead soldiers returning home from war in body bags are on the left.  There is a big difference (Eccl 10:2).  The right understands evil.  The left doesn't.  Those on the right are often the ones getting knee deep in blood in a stand against evil (Josh 24:15).

The ones who deny the holocaust are often the ones wishing to repeat it.  The ones who are offended by pictures of aborted fetuses want to protect their ability to commit sexual sin and kill another day.

Is it difficult to look at these pictures?  Yes.  If your conscience is not seared you wish to do something about it (1 Ti 4:2).  Why don't you take a long, hard look into the face of evil?   Whether you know it or not, we are in a spiritual battle (2 Cor 10:4-5).  There is a winning side and a loosing side.  Ask yourself which side you're on. 

"I'm questioning the validity of the tactic..."

Do you also question Ike's tactics?

"It raises some extremely distasteful questions about the sanctity of the dead, respect for their remains, and the best dignified way to pay respects for these strangers. Handling and posing corpses of murdered children seems, in my mind, to be two shades away from grave robbery or something equally ghoulish....I'm offended that the bodies of dead children are exploited, posed, and manhandled..."

The children are dead.  If you are so concerned for their bodies, why don't you engage in the battle before the doctors take knifes and drills and suction tools to their bodies. 

"Ecclesiastes...Kind of a silly comment on your part."

Of course it is.  We've been over this.  You are so interested in other's opinions except when they quote the Bible--which shapes their opinion. 

"My conscience isn't "seared" by evidence of child murder; my spirit is distressed by the state of the pro-life movement and those who claim to speak for these murdered infants.  Handling their body parts for the sake of furthering a political agenda via shock value is grotesquely disrespectful, to say the very least."

You are "distressed" at those attempting to bring light to this evil?   You prefer darkness?  (Jn 3:19).  
 

Response to comment [from an atheist]:  "[L]et's stop pretending that it was news when Ike sent the reporters there..."

Why would it be news?  It's just a few million Jews being murdered and some pictures to prove it. 

Response to comment [from an atheist]:  "Gentlemen please!  Let's settle down in here you guys are knocking the pictures of the walls in the other forums.  Bob; Granite is anti-Full text.  Granite; Bob is not a coward."

Fool is Switzerland.

"Do you think the American people would have clamored for a different strategy if they had known what the Air Corp knew?"

The point is America waited too long to get involved--like we are doing now in the next struggle which is fighting for the lives of the unborn. 

People like Granite prefer covering up evil so that they can sleep well at night.  They are offended--not by murder--but by looking at the evidence of murder.  Granite knows that murder is wrong.  He even says he is opposed to Full text.  But he's got to add some nice words to show that he cares.  He must pretend that it is the corpse he cares about (as if that keeps him up at night).  He is supposedly offended that pro-lifers are dishonoring the corpse--all the while forgetting why the baby is now a corpse.   

Liberals want to sound good.  They don't want to be good (Mt 6:33).  Pro-lifers which to expose evil so that people will do something about it.  Secret sin on earth is open scandal in heaven (J. Vernon McGee). 

Response to comment [from a Satanist]:  "Full text's appalling enough without constantly needing to compare it to something else.  It really isn't like any other past atrocity..."

Is it as bad as slavery?  Atheists often accuse God of condoning slavery because it's in the Bible.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Just because slavery is mentioned in the Bible it does not mean that God endorsed it (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7).  David's adultery is given in scripture, too (2 Sam. 11:2–5).  God made him pay dearly for his sin (Psa. 38; 41; 69).

You say it is horrific yet you do not want it compared with past atrocities?  Why?  Is it because the argument rings true in the hearts of people who still have a functioning conscience?  You are a Satanist.  Why would we expect you to be fighting for our team?

The reason you do not like the argument is the same reason that rats scurry and birds fly when the farmer turns the light on in the barn.  People who hate God hate his truth.  People who love God see the light and fly high as God intended for them (Isa 40:31). 

[The children are dead.]  "Is the implication that being dead they are yours to do with as you see fit?"

The people gathering evidence of their murders see fit to warn others.  If people weren't disposing of babies as if they were trash (the fruit of sexual sin), Christians would be off doing other things.  But as usual, they must spend their lives picking up the "trash" that liberals leave behind (Jn 10:10).

"[Y]ou have no idea what I do and to presume otherwise is, to be kind, outrageously arrogant on your part."

Then maybe you'll join the pro-lifers instead of critiquing them next time.  I am sure they would prefer to give these children a proper burial.  That would be ideal.  But we live in an upside down world.  What is a pro-lifer to do with when he must decide between more evidence gathering or a proper burial?  Let's ask the Satanist his advice.  

"You're succumbing to what I call pro-life McCarthyism..."

Of course you would love communism too. 

"...unless someone agrees with you point by point"

Don't agree with me.  Agree with God.  We are to speak out for the one who cannot speak (Prov. 31:8, GWT).  You speak out against those--who are speaking for those who cannot speak.

"...they're suddenly not anti-Full text enough, or "secretly" pro-choice."

Should the Christian believe the Satanist or God's word?  "All those who hate me love death (Prov 8:36, NASB)."  Do I misunderstand your agenda.  Now you love God?  

Response to comment [from a Satanist]:  "[S]cripture very clearly condones slavery and never once condemns it, so get your facts straight."

Never once does God condone slavery in the bible.  It is just one more excuse that the godless use to dismiss God.  Biblical illiteracy has consequences. 

[Full text/slavery struggle]  "I simply think those comparisons aren't accurate. Again, most analogies usually aren't."

If the comparisons are not accurate, then they should not bother you.  Yet, you critique those comparing the struggle of slavery to the next struggle which is Full text.  Those who know their Bible and love God fight for what he is against--and has always been against--such as slavery (there is still sex trafficking going on) and the death of children by Full text. 

[Satanist] "I'm not on anyone's "team," pal."

You are not on Satan's team?  I beg to differ.

"...And if you understood Satanism, actually understood it, my opposition to Full text would not surprise you."

I am more interested in knowing what it true which is found in the pages of scripture.  We don't have to get into every pigpen to understand pigs.  Satan is a loser.  Why anyone would want to be on his team is beyond me.     

"...[I]s someone above criticism and beyond reproach just because they're pro-life?"

No.  Many "pro-lifers" are compromisers.

"Is nothing about the movement open for criticism?"

Pro-lifers should be critiqued for their compromise, sure.  For example, they should not compromise with child-killing legislation such as laws that end with "...and then you can kill the baby."  (Enyart).  This is a fair critique of pro-lifers.   

[Deciding between evidence gathering and burial of the murdered child]  "A proper burial, you thick, daft, insensitive, crass dope."

So your priorities would be--be sure to protect the right to kill babies so that people can freely commit sexual sin, and then be sure that the murdered baby's body is cared for?  See, this is why pro-lifers don't invite too many Satanists to their strategy meetings for brainstorming ideas.  

[Pro-life McCarthyism]  "Completely missed my point."

No I didn't.  I do not coddle liberals when they pull out their two favorite words:  "Nazi" and "McCarthyism".  If you want to discuss why communism should be rooted out of government, I am happy to.  I thought they were hip now.   

Response to comment [from a Satanist]:  [Slavery] "[God's] followers were ordered to take slaves..."

God gave laws against slavery (Ex. 21:16).  If you would like to discuss the treatment of God's enemies in a time of war that is a different topic.

"I'm a stickler for historical accuracy."

Then you can see that those who value life still have work to do.  They do not distort history.  They make a good comparison between the evils of slavery and the evils of Full text. 

"Probably I'm splitting hairs too much..."

Perhaps you recognize that you are not in the position to make moral judgments.  You reject God's moral authority.   

[Compromise, Child-Killing Regulation]  "You would consider that the only possible legitimate criticism of the pro-life movement?"

There may be legitimate criticisms of the pro-life movement.

"When [Full text] happens and you are personally exposed to its reality you don't pose a child's corpse, manhandle it, use it as a prop, and leave it in the garbage."

Full text is a tragedy.  The Christian coming upon the body of a slain Child has the first hands that ever treated him with care.  It's too late to offer help of course.   

"That, to me, is a grotesque, twisted, sick, macabre violation of everything the movement's supposed to stand for."

I guess the difference is, Christians look at the world truthfully and try to bring awareness to the Full text issue.  

"Give the child a proper burial. What about this concept is so hard for you to understand?"

For the Full textist, a proper burial is the garbage bin.  It's not hard to understand that the child should receive a proper burial.  I would agree under normal circumstances.  But doctors throwing babies into garbage bins is not normal (Ro 5:12).     

Response to comment [from an atheist]:  "We're talking about slaying infants, your God commands that, how is that a different topic?"

Slaying the infants of God's enemies or slaying innocent life (e.g. Full text)? 

God commands the death of his enemies--that's a good thing.  Why do you side with them?  God forbids the death of innocent life (Deut 19:10)--that's a bad thing.  God has the right to take life because he created life.  Man does not have the right to take life unless commanded by God (e.g. for: murder, adultery, sodomy, rape, kidnapping, fornication, witchcraft, prophesying falsely, or propagating false doctrines, etc.)  It is his universe.  He gets to make the rules. 

"...[Y]oung mothers walk right past pictures of what's about to happen to their baby into the clinic, there is no comparison."

Are you saying that they should not see the pictures if they are planning to murder their baby?

"God rejects [my moral authority]...so here's me and him rejecting each others authority, now what?  I guess we fight, only he never shows up."

Being an atheist, you are your own god.  But don't be deceived.  God is not mocked (Ga 6:7).  Read the book--he wins (Re 20:15).

"Tiller was killed in a Church, he was an usher."

Tiller [Full textist murdered] died as he lived (Enyart).

[Full text] "It's apparently pretty frequent."

That doesn't make it right (Pr 8:36).

Response to comment [from a Satanist]:  "...[J]ust because you're the first to care about her or him doesn't mean their remains are yours to do with as you see fit."

You would prefer that the world not see what is being done? 

"There is a very simple, dignified thing to do."

If you faced them one day, would you tell them that?  What do you think they would say to you?

"Are you deliberately being dense?"

No.  There are many children who should be alive today and are not. 

Response to comment [from a Satanist]:  "[A]re their remains yours to do with as you see fit?"

After being left in a trash bin, I think that they would want their remains shown to the world to prevent another baby from suffering.  They know that their body will be joined with their sprit again one day (Phil. 3:21).  But until that day, they are concerned with God's plans not your discomfort.   

[What would they say?]  "They might ask why so many people left them in the garbage and took pictures of them there, among other things. Or they might asked why they were treated like props. "I gave you a burial and gave you a decency and dignity in death that others denied you" wouldn't be something I would be ashamed of."

You only seem concerned that pro-lifers are bringing light to fact that wicked men murder babies and throw them out like trash.  Every baby bears God's image (Gen. 9:6; Col. 3:10).  You throw God out of your life so why would you care if those made in his image are thrown out?  I don't think you give a damn about the baby.  I think that your desires are the same as the desires of your father (Jn 8:44). 

What happens to Granite when you hit it with a hammer?

Response to comment:  [Legal question] "You're stalling and squirming at this point because you understand the implication of my question. Maybe you're not as dense as I thought."

No.  I agree with those doing this bloody job.  You cannot kill babies with tranquility (Enyart).

["It would not seem that you care..."]  "...says the guy who can't even tell me the decent thing to do with a baby's dead body. Take your hope and turn into something resembling basic humanity, Pharisee."

I think the Pharisees would have passed by without concern for the slain baby (Lk 10:31-32).  I don't disagree that babies should be buried properly.  We are also told to warn others of the consequences of murder (Jer 26:15). 

[Bloody job] "What specific job are you referring to?"

Taking pictures of the victims of Full text.

"Are the remains of aborted children yours to do with as you see fit?"

Mine?  No. 

Have you read the rest of the thread?  Those who have been knee deep in the bloody remains of children have provided you with links that show many of these babies received a proper burial. 

"And by that do you mean others, or just not you?"

That is a legal question.

"Your answers are getting more and more opaque. You say the bodies weren't taken in some cases because those rooting through dumpsters thought the "evidence" served them better if it stayed and you thought that was [wise]; now you say you support the burial of aborted children; and you still can't clearly say whether or not we can do with these dead strangers as we please."

"Do with these dead strangers as we please"?  Pro-lifers photograph murdered babies to prevent additional murders.  Yes, I think that they should record the evidence.  You acted as if they desecrate their bodies:  "...pose a child's corpse, manhandle it, use it as a prop...".  They do not.   

Maybe they were permitted to take their bodies but didn't.  Maybe they were not permitted to take their bodies because they were unfortunately seen as other people's property (e.g. bio-hazard waste).  Either way, I think it is wise to bring social tension to the issue of child killing.

[Legal]  "And this answer of yours is a cop out."

Christians take God's law (Ge 37:22; Jer 26:15) and civil law (Luke 20:22) seriously.

"So how do you think these pictures are taken and posed, SD?..."

They took pictures at a crime scene.  You are having a hard time because you have a corrupt mind (Titus 1:15).  Whatever you think they may have done--with or to--the body of the child is inaccurate, I am sure.  They did not desecrate the body as you insinuate. 

"You said (as though being in a position to personally know) that the decision was made to leave the remains there since it'd be more advantageous to the cause.  Are you backtracking from that statement?"

I am not backtracking on that statement.  I am not in the position to personally know all of the facts.  You have been speaking with the one who does know the details in this thread.

It sounded to me like they left the body of the child there in this case.  In other cases, pro-lifers buried the children.  Each situation may be different.  You insinuate that they do not care about the children.  Why else would they be there?  Of course they care about the children--they are there to prevent the murder of another child.  They are letting the world know about what is happening. 

Many people gather around a crime scene.  Yellow police tape goes up and officers are telling people to stand back.  One man starts taking pictures.  He works for the police so he gathers the evidence.  Another person, sort of hiding behind other people, peers into the scene as well.  He would prefer no pictures taken.  He doesn't want the pictures to be developed or for them to ever see the light of day because you see, he is the murder. 

I think you want what your father wants (Jn 8:44).  His plans and purposes are your plans and purposes.  Lawyers bring evidence into a court of law and sometimes it's bloody.  It's not easy to look at.  This is what pro-lifers are doing.  Christians are not lawyers but they are witnesses of Jesus Christ.  They warn others about the consequences of murder.  Warning others is better than being apathetic.

"I don't think you're misinformed or stupid enough not to have seen such photos as I'm describing.  In this case, you've simply chosen to act obtuse."

I haven't seen the pictures you are talking about then.  I have seen just two pictures (this one here [Jefferson]) and the one on the truth truck.  They are extremely disturbing.  I think people should see them.  Incidentally, I also think that people should see the Daniel Pearl beheading video so that they are aware of our enemy.

"You said the remains were left..."

That's how I understand it from what I heard.  I could be wrong.

[Father the devil (Jn 8:44)]  "Actually, my father founded a crisis pregnancy center in Pontiac, you stiff-necked buffoon."

I am sure that your earthly father is a very nice person.  You claim to be a Satanist.  The Bible has a lot to say about people like you.  You expect me not to believe it?   

"You have never in your entire life seen any other pictures of aborted children?"

No.  Seeing two is enough.  The pictures that I saw were enough to convince me of the horror of Full text.   

"[Y]ou don't understand what Satanism is, at all, and don't appear interested in learning otherwise."

I am not interested in Satan.  But I would be interested in what you believe.  I understand that Satanists believe different things.  They obviously reject Christian doctrine.  God is generally viewed as impersonal or made up.  Man is not seen as made in God's image.  Sin is an invention of men.  There is no need for salvation.  There is no life beyond death.  Maybe you believe in the "Nine Satanic Statements", some of which are:  Man should indulge, not abstain; be kind only to the deserving; and take vengeance instead of turning the other cheek ("Do unto others as they do unto you").  Maybe you think Christians need a "crutch" which is why they believe in God?  (Christianity, Cults & the Occult, Rose Publishing). 

"...Or correcting any misunderstandings you have, for that matter."

What don't I understand?

"I'd submit, then, that you don't have a clear understanding at all as to what I've been talking about."

I am sure it is more horrific than I imagine, then.  But I do not believe that the people you are speaking with here are guilty of doing wrong.  They of all people know that they are responsible for their actions before God.  And God knows their heart.  If they sin and know it--for example, say in reality they really don't care about the baby; they were more concerned with being right then doing right just to further their cause.  God will hold them accountable.  You might believe this but I do not.

"That's a very crude paraphrase, but roughly resembles some of them, yes."

I know how you hate cut and paste.  I can only guess what you believe from your other posts.  

"...I think some people do need a crutch of sorts and that their faith, be it Christianity or another religion, fits that role perfectly."

As Mac Powell says, "I don't need a crutch.  I need an ambulance."  We are utterly helpless.  There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God (Ro 3:11).  This is a paradox that Christians live with.  How do we help people who are unable to understand and who don't want to understand?  We press toward an impossible goal (Phil 3:14).  But with God all things are possible (Mt 19:26).  My pastor says that there are two types of people in this world--those who have hope and those who need it.   We've got it.  You need it. 

Look at that face.  That's a face only a mama would love.  You look like you need hope. 

By your own admission you don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe for you being [misinformed] is enough to form an opinion.

I can tell you what I know.  I cannot tell you what I don't know.  Maybe you are out there looking at more pictures than I am. 

"Very Rumsfeldesque of you...Yes, I would definitely say on this issue I know what I'm talking about and you simply don't.  I'm not expecting an apology coming from you considering you overreacted and lied, but it's not a perfect world."

An apology for not perusing your favorite websites?  I'll concede your point--you have seen more horrifying pictures of aborted babies than I have.  But I do not assume that pro-lifers have acted callously.  It's a bloody world thanks to liberals (Jn 10:10).  In a perfect world (as God created it [Ge 1:31]) men don't pick up the pieces of murdered children.      

[Christians need a crutch]  "Because it's true. Certain people fill the void with certain activities.  For you, it happens to be religion. Just as well...I wonder, sometimes, exactly what you people would do without it. Nothing good, probably."

We could say the same about you.  Christians are here are giving out the word of God.  Who has made theology a mere intellectual exercise?  You have been exposed to much light here at theology online no doubt; yet, some 24,000 posts later-- any change of heart?  ever?  You only heap coals on your head.   

"You guys are all equally nuts."

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