Bats of a feather

[Did Moses make an error when he called a bat a bird? by Bodie Hodge] "Moses, who was one of the most-learned in Egypt, has been attacked in several cases to undermine biblical authority. This is another of those attacks to get people to doubt that God was speaking through Moses. Let’s evaluate such a claim in more detail. The passage reads:

Leviticus 11:13–19 These are the birds [05775 Pwe ‘owph] you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

The Hebrew word for bird is actually owph which means “fowl/winged creature.”1 The word owph simply means “to fly” or “has a wing.” So, the word includes birds, bats, and even flying insects. The alleged problem appears due to translation of owph as bird. Birds are included in the word owph, but owph is not limited to birds. This shows that translators aren't always perfect when handling the inerrant Word of God." Full text:  Did Moses make an error when he called a bat a bird? http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/10/13/contradictions-bats-of-a-feather.

Response to comment [from other]: "So you hold that the bible is not the inerrant word of God, since it has been translated and translators make errors. Further that God does not and will not protect translators against errors in translating His word."

You and I make typos.  So did scribes.

"...[T]he Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. Each writer wrote with a different style, from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some minor differences. However, a difference is not a contradiction..." full text:  Does the Bible contain errors, contradictions, or discrepancies?  http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-errors.html

"More than ninety-nine percent of the variants in the New Testament are not even noticeable when the text is translated; of the remaining differences, none affects any vital aspect of the Christian faith...In two-million-plus pages of biblical text, there are between 200,000 and 400,000 variations in working or spelling...What the skeptics don't clearly communicate to their readers...is their sheer insignificance of these variants.

Most of the 400,000 variations stem from differences in spelling, word order, or the relationships between nouns and definite articles--slight variants that are easily recognizable.  After minor spelling errors and slight variations in word order are factored out, there is more than 99% agreement between all of the known manuscripts of the Bible!  Of the remaining variants, none affects any crucial element of the Christian faith..." full text:  Why Trust the Bible? http://vananne.com/inspiredscripture/Why%20Trust%20the%20Bible.PDF

Response to comment [from a "Christian"]:  "So, SD, when Joshua commands the sun to stand still is that an error?"

Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel [Josh. 10:12–14].
"We have already discussed the various interpretations of Joshua’s long day in the opening remarks of this chapter. According to Joshua 10:12, I believe God stopped the entire solar system to accomplish this miracle. The sun became silent. Joshua wanted more daylight in which to fight; so God stopped the solar system and cut down the heat of the sun by a hailstorm.
God caused the sun to stand still so that Joshua might be victorious in battle. A certain professor once said, “It is ridiculous that God would stop the entire universe for one man.” It may sound preposterous to some people, but God did it. He also sent His Son into the world to die for sinners, which was much more wonderful than stopping the sun. When God stopped the sun, He demonstrated His wisdom and power. When He sent His Son into the world to become a man and die on the cross, He displayed His love. If you were the only person that had ever been born, Christ would have died for you. The professor will say that is ridiculous also, and it is. But we have another word for it: grace. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8)."
McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 2:25

"10:12–14 sun stood still, And the moon stopped. Some say an eclipse hid the sun, keeping its heat from Joshua’s worn soldiers and allowing coolness for battle. Others suppose a local (not universal) refraction of the sun’s rays such as the local darkness in Egypt (Ex. 10:21–23). Another view has it as only language of observation; i.e., it only seemed to Joshua’s men that the sun and moon stopped as God helped them do in one literal 24-hour day what would normally take longer. Others view it as lavish poetic description, not literal fact. However, such ideas fail to do justice to 10:12–14, and needlessly question God’s power as Creator. This is best accepted as an outright, monumental miracle. Joshua, moved by the Lord’s will, commanded the sun to delay (Heb., “be still, silent, leave off”). The earth actually stopped revolving or, more likely, the sun moved in the same way to keep perfect pace with the battlefield. The moon also ceased its orbiting. This permitted Joshua’s troops time to finish the battle with complete victory (v. 11)."

Heb. Hebrew
MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Jos 10:12

Faith believes God (Heb 11:1).  Do you believe God (Jn 14:1), Christ (Jn 6:29; Ac 20:21), the writings of Moses (Jn 5:46; Ac 24:14), the prophets (2Ch 20:20; Ac 26:27) and the gospel (Mr 1:15)?  On what basis do you call yourself a Christian? 

Response to comment [from a "Christian"]:  "It's impossible for the "sun to stand still" in a literal sense and have the effect intended. You can explain what actually happened in a number of ways. The question is, is this an error or not? I'm asking you not MacArthur (who didn't answer the question either)."

The Holy Spirit is our teacher.  He reveals the things of God (1Co 2:10,13) and Christ (Jn 16:14).

I am asking you not Beelzebub why you think there are errors in the Bible?  You talk daily about what you do not believe.  Why don't you tell us when you do start believing the Bible?  On what basis do you call yourself a Christian?  You argue like an atheist.

"You lie repeatedly."

Proof please. :peach:

Do you now believe God? http://vananne.com/serpentdove/AOquestions.htm

Response to comment [from a "Christian"]:  "The Bible contains ancient science, such as the sun standing still, an immovable earth, a hard domed sky etc....They simply reflect the viewpoint of the inspired writer."

You believe the writer was inspired to write error?  Forgetting to dot an "i" or cross a "t" is different from writing a substantial error.  You either believe the Bible is the inspired word of God or you do not (2 Ti 3:16).  Which is it?  Is the Bible scientifically wrong?

"I quoted the Nicene creed earlier which I believe, notably you didn't comment..."

Stating a creed is one thing.  Pouring a different meaning into the creed than historical, biblical Christianity is another thing.

"I believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ, his bodily resurrection and death to save mankind from their sins."

Yet, you do not give a damn what he says? Jn 5:47.

"Do you think believing in creation in 6 days is necessary and all it takes?"

A person is not saved based on his/her belief in a normal six day creation week (Ex 20:11; 31:17).  A person is saved based on his/her relationship with Jesus.

"...[I]t's you that force[s] people to choose between faith and science..."

Truth is truth independent from me.

"...well more like AiG does..."

Poisoning the well.

"You're a great atheist maker."

You reveal your own heart.

[Do you now believe God?/AO Questions] "Do you?"

I do not have a problem with the Bible passages that you brought up.  You no longer do?    http://vananne.com/serpentdove/AOquestions.htm

[You believe the writer was inspired to write error?]  "No. God doesn't inspire error..."

Do you believe the Bible contains errors?  If so, who made the error?  God or the writer? 

[You either believe the Bible is the inspired word of God or you do not (2 Ti 3:16). Which is it?]  "That's not at all what early Christians or Jews believed. There were different "levels" of inspiration. It also depends on what you mean by inspired."

I suppose that's a "no".

[Is the Bible scientifically wrong?] "It's not a science textbook. It reflects the science of the time it was written in."

So they were wrong scientifically and modern scientists are right? 

"You think I'm an atheist now?"

Your arguments are similar. 

[I do not have a problem with the Bible passages that you brought up (http://vananne.com/serpentdove/AOquestions.htm). :idunno: You no longer do?] "I've never "have a problem with" those passages. They reflect the ancient understanding of the earth..."

Why do you bring up these passages as problem texts?  Is it your position that they were wrong scientifically and modern scientists are right? 

[Do you believe the Bible contains errors? If so, who made the error? God or the writer?]  "The writers were still flawed human beings like you and I. God did not choose to correct the science because it would have caused confusion for centuries of the hearers rather than understanding."

The writers got the science wrong and modern scientists have corrected their errors?

"I believe in an inspired scripture, though probably not in the same sense as you do."

Perhaps you spiritualize 2 Ti 3:16, too.

"...[S]cience isn't important for the gospel message..."

If the Bible contains errors, why should anyone believe it? 

"...[I]t's merely part of the cultural landscape of the writer..."

Did people look like ape men in this cultural landscape?  How cultured can an ape be really?  

"Your problem is you actually place so much value on scientific knowledge that you feel the Bible must be scientifically accurate or it is useless."

The Bible is scientifically inaccurate?

"Consider for a moment that the Bible is not designed to teach science at all, nor was it held to a standard of scientific perfection (though it does reflect simple observational accuracy) what then...?"

The Bible is simplistic?

[Not problem texts/problem texts] "They have the same "problems" that Genesis 1 has, an ancient understanding of the universe..."

Ancient writers were wrong and modern scientists are right?  Why don't you take this questionnaire and see how much of the Bible you believe? http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n1/questionnaire-for-institutions

[2 Ti 3:16] "Perhaps you don't understand the verse."

What do you think of (Ps 12:6)?  Is the Bible perfect?  Pr 30:5?  Is the Bible pure? 

Does the Bible reflect God in anyway?  Should we judge the Bible or should the Bible judge us? 

Should we toss out parts we don't like?  (Psalm 119:89).  Who should we trust?  Ourselves?  Or the word of God? Jn 6:67-69.

"There's no "science" or "natural knowledge" in there.  In righteousness, good works . . .where do you find science in there?"  http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2374983#poststop

The Bible can only instruct us in righteousness and good works?

[The Bible is scientifically inaccurate?] "In terms of a modern standard yes...I don't see anything wrong with God using the "science of the day"."

God had to learn from modern scientists?

[The Bible is simplistic?] "In some senses and books yes in others not. The Gospel itself message NEEDS to be simple, otherwise is God only appealing to the learned and intelligent?"

I did not ask if the Bible is simple.  I asked if the Bible is simplistic.

"That questionnaire is for institutions, not individuals. Why do you (or AiG in this case) have the right to put me on trial?"

Those are questions to consider.   

"I answered your last one anyway and you've never actually answered or apologized for the lies you've been telling."

Proof please.

[The Bible can only instruct us in righteousness and good works?] "Do you want it to tell you about something else?"

The Bible has a lot to say to us if we are willing to listen. You claim to have the word of God; yet, respond viscerally to it (1 Pet. 1:23). The spirit of God will not disagree with the word of God. Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5).

On what basis do you claim to be better off than the atheist (atheist: lit. without God [without God, without Christ, without hope]).

Jesus loves you (
Jn 3:16). Jesus is willing to save you (2 Pe 3:9). Repent (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30). Believe (Mk 9:23).

"I despise creationists that make their view of creation into a burden upon men's souls (as Morris did)."  

Is despising Christians an emotional response?  True Christians love one another (1 Jn 3:14).

"You are like the Pharisees, heaping heavy burdens upon believers..."

The Pharisees were fond of distinguished titles (Mt 23:7-10) and offended by Jesus' doctrine (Mt 15:12; 21:45; Lu 16:14).

"Do you not recall what Jesus said about the Pharisees?"

If you do not believe Moses (Ge 1:1 :stuck:) why would you believe what Jesus has to say? (Jn 5:47)

"You've no right to make your view of creation a point of salvation."

We do not go to heaven or hell based on our belief in creation (Ge 1:1).  We go to heaven or hell based on a right relationship with Jesus.

"[W]ho are you to judge?"

Christians open their mouths and judge rightly (Pr 31:9).

Bats of a feather