Men
cannot add one ounce of goodness to the world until they are found in Christ.
Goodness comes from him. Where can men find meaning if not in him?
(Jn 15:5). Things are all around. How is it that men don't see?
(Eze 12:2). Does Anyone Else Feel Theologically Alone?
Response to comment [from a "Christian"]: "I am word faith...Speak to the mountain."
Do you believe that if you speak to a mountain it will move? They look pretty sturdy to me.
"Jesus said that those who believe that a mountain can be moved would do it. Do you believe He was lying? He seems pretty trustworthy to me."
I do not think that Jesus was lying when he said that men could move mountains. I do not think that Jesus lied when he said that we can move mountains (Mt 17:20). I also do not think that he lied when he said that he is bread (Jn 6:48); light (Jn 9:5) and a door (Jn 10:9). I do not think that he lied when he said we should cut off our member (Mt 18:8) or pluck out our eye (Mt 18:9). But do we worship bread, light bulbs and doors? Should Christians have one eye, one hand and one foot?
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "I have little other choice but to follow my own path..."
What is the problem with man? With the world? Do you believe that it is knowledge? Sin? Is there anything common to man (e.g. wicked heart)? Do you think man can fix the world?
Response to comment [from a Roman Catholic]: "[Y]ou seem to be a practicing Christian."
Must a Christian work his way to God? Must he work his way all the way up to God in his throne? Would God have to move over when he has worked his way all the way up to his throne?
Response to comment [from a pagan]: "Well, I'm an animistic/monist libertarian who straddles the fence between light and dark..."
Have you ever been able to test your faith (e.g. measure any force)? Is there an absolute right and wrong (e.g. or are there shades of gray)? Can we know right from wrong? If so how? What can validate your belief? Experience? The Word of God?
"[E]veryday I wake up and look in the mirror and see I'm a Native American."
Do you think that Native Americans come to God differently than everyone else? Do they have a special connection to animals or nature or God that the rest of us do not have? If there is a creator-God, how would he make himself known?
"There is no point to needless moral codes."
If a man punched you in the face would you find that wrong? If someone raped or murdered your family member would you take issue with it? If a person took what belonged to you (e.g. land or possessions) would you find it wrong? If you find any of these things wrong, how can you say it is wrong? Who put that universal sense of right and wrong in people? Ro 2:15.
"I do what I see is good and benefits me both physically and mentally that fits in the constraints of the 'law of the land'.
Do you trust others to do what is right by you? What if they say that punching you, raping women, murdering your family members and taking your land is right. Who is to say that their "right" is better or worse than your sense of "right". Who are we to trust? Should we live by survival of the fittest?
"[Right and wrong]--It's not something a person needs a book or leader to tell them about."
The apostle Paul agreed with you although he studied the scriptures. He said that the law of God is written on our hearts (Ro 2:15). We did not need a book to understand that. But he did seek to obey all that he believed God told men through inspiration of the Holy Spirit as revealed in the scriptures. However, when he encountered the living Lord, he counted all that he knew before "loss" compared to the knowledge of knowing God (Phil 3:8). For some reason, after meeting Jesus he was willing to die to share the knowledge of him with others. Why would a person do that? Was he crazy? Was he deceived? Do you think he was on to something?
"Why should anyone else but me see the world like I do?"
Do you think that others insist that you see the world as they do: to get something from you, to take away your uniqueness, or require you to live a certain way? If a Christian believed that Jesus is the one and only way to heaven and that by repenting of sin and placing trust in him a person can be forgiven of their sin, wouldn't that be news to share with others? Why would the apostle Paul welcome the opportunity to be jailed wrongfully where he could share Christ with his jailers? Wouldn't a normal person be upset with God to allow him to be in that situation? What type of a spirit fills a man to overcome bad situations like that? How can people know joy and peace considering tribulations and injustice in the world (Phil 4:7)? Do you think that the apostle Paul had tools for life that others might not have?
"[If] there is some extrinsic deity out there, their word would be all around us in existence, not in so called religious revelation."
Do you think there is an internal testimony (Ro 2:15) and an external testimony (Ps 19:1) as well as scripture to reveal God to man? Do you recognize beauty around you? Could God be giving you little glimpses of his light all around? Have you ever considered that we have a father in heaven who made us and loves us (Ge 1:1). If there were a creator-God, how would he reveal himself to man?
"[Ancestors] connections...[and] perceptions of existence..."
What is man connected to? Do you think he has a God-shaped key in his heart that only Jesus can fill? What or who can fill man's heart? A vibration? Jesus? How can we explain why men behave wickedly as they do (Jer 17:9)? Do you think that the Bible explains man's condition pretty well?
"If someone did any of that I would say it's wrong because your first question would hurt, your second is a transgression against an individual's life, and the third one can severely inhibit ones ability to have comfort or even to continue life..."
So pain tells us when something is wrong. But the human heart can experience pain too. Some people try to cure pain with drugs, alcohol, sex or money. Do you think that God can heal the human heart (Isa 61:1)?
"Inhibit continuing life..."
So we act because of survival. But why would one man die for another? Why would Jesus die for us (Ro 5:6-8)?
"I can say that is wrong because I wouldn't want that done to me."
But all men cannot decide right from wrong based on what you say. What about the other guy's authority to distinguish right from wrong. Most of the time he can't be trusted (Ex 23:2). Would you rather live in a world in which men obeyed God's law or in a world where men obeyed men's laws (Acts 5:29)?
"[I]nstinct...I see it as part of a natural process of progression and evolution in an infinite existence."
So you are an evolutionist. God said he created the world (Ge 1:1) and men in it (Ge 1:26). Do you think man is getting better or worse?
"I don't trust anyone but the people I have developed that trust for to not ever do wrong."
Do these people have characteristics as God describes himself in the Bible: holy, loving, merciful, just, righteous, good? If they are so lovely to you, why isn't God lovely to you? Do you think that God gave you the ability to recognize these attributes in others in the hopes that you will one day recognize these attributes in him too (Ac 17:27)? What about the one who made the ones you trust and love? Maybe there is a little of him in them. Don't you want to end up in a good place with your loved ones?
"[T]he truth is life is survival of not only the fittest, but also the smartest..."
One of the boys at Columbine who shot up his school wore a t-shirt that day that said the same thing. Do you think that that worldview leads men to good lives and doctrine? Do we need more smart people or more good people?
"[Rights--as long as they] do not infringe on the individual."
So "do onto others as you would have them do to you". The problem is, men don't act that way. Men do as they like and others live with the consequences of their sin.
"[The apostle Paul's experience] it's ambiguous...[left] up to the individual."
People still today come to Christ as the apostle Paul did. Jesus has changed their lives.
"[Don't like discussion of] hell...to Hell. Some people want everyone to profess the same philosophy. Why do you think churches have stained glass windows? So it's members can't see the mosque down the street."
You're probably right about that. Why would a
Christian care that you have his/her same philosophy or worldview? Do you
think that they believe what they tell you (2 Cor 5:11)?
"[I]t's the expectation that someone should believe it when they haven't
experienced anything to make them; and the hate and slander that follows when
they reject it that bothers me."
We are supposed to be more Christlike but we fail. Someone said the Christian is not sinless, he just sins less. Those who are being renewed daily still fall short of the goal (Eph 4:23). But what if Jesus really did die and rise again. Don't you think that it's a good idea to get in on how he did just that? People don't come back to life. If someone did, don't you want to know if that same power is available for you and the ones you love (1 Cor 6:14)? What do you have to loose (but sin)? I disagree that we have to accept things as they are. We have riches waiting for us (Eccl 5:19, Mt 6:19-20) and we can claim them (Deut 8:18).
"I've worked in a prison, I find it quite troubling not only that those people could be forgiven for their sins, but that anyone would want to spend eternity in a place with them. I'm talking about prisoners of course, in today's world I doubt any jailers out there aren't aware of Jesus. I don't worry about the past much, it um, well has past."
I don't think that I am better than those prisoners you met. My sin was just as offensive to a holy God. I am grateful that God has the capacity to forgive sins. Jesus did not die for cleaned up Sunday school boys and girls (1 Jn 1:8). He died for sinners who were poor, brokenhearted and captive (Isa 61:1). There was nothing lovely about us (Ro 5:8).
"[N]egativity in existence [e.g. racism]"
The evolutionists tell us that we evolved from some special monkeys who decided to descended from the trees. They say that the races evolved at different times and therefore some races are smarter than others. But God said we are one blood with some differences in amounts of melanin (Ac 17:26). God is creative. He is not as concerned with skin color as men are. He is concerned with the heart (1 Sam 16:7).
The Bible teaches that sin is the cause of what is evil in the world. We can see the result of sin all around us.
"The words in any book is a result of someone's feelings and creativity unless it's a depiction of something that evidence exist to prove actually happened/existed."
If you believed that the Bible was God's infallible, inerrant word as inspired by the Holy Spirit, would you do what it says you must do to live (Mt 3:2)?
"[Nature]...[a] permeating life force."
No one has ever measured a life force. But a real Jesus really lived and died and rose again. Why would a person put faith into a force that does not love and cannot be proven.
"... ever progressing and evolving on this planet we call Earth at it's most beautiful."
Do you think that men are getting better or worse (2 Ti 3:2)?
"Existence is proof of existence."
I'm glad you agree that we exist. You would think that our existence would be obvious to everyone; but some people have convinced themselves that we do not even exist.
"[If there were a creator-God, how would he reveal himself to man?] Fly down here and say 'hi'?"
What if he did in the person of Jesus Christ. Would you want to hear what he had to say?
"I am as solid in my beliefs (or mostly lack thereof) as you are. Plus, I don't do interviews too often, so I bid you a wonderful farewell!"
Thank you. Goodbye.
Pt 2:
"...Hello again! Just so you know I am not really a fan of long post or circular arguments. I'm not being mean, I just didn't want you to think I was ignoring any of your questions. The ones I don't reply to are the one's I feel I have answered...Good and evil to me exist on a single spectrum. You can't say you are good, or evil for that matter (I don't know why anyone would want to say that but they do), without the awareness of evil. You can't presume to be a righteous person unless you are aware of unrighteousness, unless of course all you are doing is living by law. Even then it's relative. Let's say you was born and raised a headhunter. You will think headhunting is a fine profession."
Fair enough. I do not want to monopolize your time. If you feel you have answered my questions already, by all means move on. I appreciate that you took the time to answer a few more questions.
Your view of good and evil is a major distinction between the left and the right. In my opinion, the left does not appreciate the big gulf between good and evil. We disagree on this point. But as Dennis Prager says "I prefer clarity to agreement."
You gave the argument of headhunters. People know that murder is wrong. We do not need scripture to tell us that (Ro 2:15). Missionaries go to villages to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. The law comes from Moses; grace and truth through the gospel of Jesus Christ (Jn 1:17). With or without a missionary, the villagers are responsible before God (Ro 1:20).
"You can't presume to be a righteous person unless you are aware of unrighteousness..."
Men can be indifferent (Eccl 7:1) or in denial (Eccl 7:3), but we will stand before God (Ro 14:10). We would do well to prepare for that definite date on the calendar.
"...unless of course all you are doing is living by law. Even then it's relative."
God's law is perfect (Ps 19:7). It's a mirror to show men that they fall fall short of heaven's standards.
"I don't see anything extrinsic that could [heal the human heart]."
That's exactly what Christ came to do. But until men see themselves as poor, broken and enslaved, they will not come to the Lord. Suffering helps to draw men near to God where they should be. It is better to suffer a short while to be saved, then suffer for all eternity.
"[W]e all have the resolve and love within us to accomplish [heart healing] if we actually tried without turning to vices."
Men have been trying for a long time. When they come to the end of themselves, God is there (Ac 17:27).
[Jesus died for man] "He did? I never saw it, and even if that happened I never asked him to. It's about like people planning you a surprise party when all you wanted to do on your birthday was rest and enjoy a day off work if you were so lucky. Now you have to put up with it and people complain you seem all distant."
It's childish to say "if only...if only" or "I didn't ask for this". God does not apologize for his plan of salvation. Men take it or leave it (Ro 1:16).
"I can promise there isn't anyone else with an idea of heaven that I'd want to spend eternity in. Think about that word... Eternity. Unless there is a heaven for and tailored to every single individual I ain't signing up."
Many people say that heaven would be hell for them. J. Vernon McGee said, if you are not interested in praising God here, you wouldn't be interested in praising him there. He also said that men's hearts are like clay or ice. They either harden when exposed to heat and light or they melt. It all comes down to the heart.
"[Y]ou could convince people Frodo Baggins loves them and you would get the same effect [Holy Spirit baptizing, indwelling the justified]. That is why there are as many religions as they are cultures that existed. It's a simple awakening, grandiosity is overrated."
Satan comes up with so many lies, it's hard to keep up. He attempts to counterfeit the Christian experience "burning in the bosom" etc. When you mix a little bit of lie with the truth, you "leaven the whole lump", the Bible says (Ga 5:9). Only the real presence of the real Holy Spirit indwelling a believer will produce fruit (Mt 7:16). And only the Holy Spirit can makes things real to a person.
"...[I]f a murdering rapist has as good a chance to get into heaven as anyone else something doesn't really add up."
I doesn't add up to man (Heb 11:4). But it adds up to God (Isa 55:8). It is the difference between all other religions of the world which are work-based vs. historical Christianity which is faith-based. All other ways lead to death. Trust in Christ leads to life (Jud 1:11).
[The Bible has been embellished]
See:
Response to comment [from a Christian]: "You're all going to Hell......I'm not sure why yet but give me some more time to go over the Theological checklist and I'll find something."
Are you the class clown? What are the essentials that we have to get right? Must we all agree (Phil 2:2)? Why don't we all agree?
Response to comment [from a Hindu]: "My most
enjoyable vocation is being 'consciousness' itself, adventuring thru life in its
many dimenisons, perspectives and view-points as they are like a kaleidoscope,
of which logics and truths change within differing contexts, there always being
room for more expansion of light, progressive revelation....an infinity of
experience.
In my spirit-identity or God-Self,...I Am No-thing and every-thing - as I chart
the fields of theology, I may gravitate towards whatever school or tradition
resonates with my 'inner compass', recognizing 'God' as my pilot-light, the
immortal flame. The truest knowledge is 'I Am'."
Do you worship one of the many Hindu gods? Which one/ones? Why (e.g. what is appealing)? Is there any room in that mixture to worship the living and true, creator God--the creator of the heavens and the earth (Ge 1:1)?
Response to comment [from a Satanist]: "[T]he inerrancy of the bible isn't that important to me."
If the Bible has errors, can all of it be trusted?
"I'm not dogmatic about the virgin birth or divinity of Christ."
Would Christ qualify to be our savior if he was not virgin born? If he was not God in human flesh? Why do you believe that he was not virgin born? Dr. Luke said he was. Why do you believe that Jesus is not divine? He said he was. Was he a liar, a lunatic or Lord? If there is another choice, please give it.
"I'm open to the idea of evolution."
Do you believe that man's theories trump God's revealed word?
Do you think that we can have a heart for God but our mind is not convinced of him? Jesus said that our hearts, minds and souls must love God (Mt 22:37). What do you think is the state of a person who loves God with his heart but not his mind? Has the person in that semi-commitment state passed from death to life (Jn 5:24)?
"I have a hard time reconciling the portrayal of God in the OT with God in the NT."
How does God differ in the OT (Hos 2:19) vs. the NT (Jn 3:36)?
"I've taken a step back from getting into the major theological threads. Scripture supports every view."
Jesus said there was one truth (Jn 14:6).
Response to comment [from a Satanist]: "I'm the only active Nihilist on this forum - there have been one or two others in the past, but they've been gone for some time now. It does get a bit difficult communicating with people who tend to assume that there is some level of intrinsic meaning, purpose and value lying somewhere underneath existence..."
Do you find meaning in anything at all (e.g. love for a child, beauty in nature)? If nothing means anything then why post a comment at all?
"Nihilism only acknowledges the lack of any intrinsic meaning, purpose or value in existence - it doesn't necissarily imply that one can't create his own. I acknowledge value in things, but I realize that they are only creations of perception: if nothing were around to perceive anything, there would be no value."
Men
cannot add one ounce of goodness to the world until they are found in Christ.
Goodness comes from him. Where can men find meaning if not in him?
(Jn 15:5). Things are all around. How is it that men don't see?
(Eze 12:2).
Let's define "goodness". Tell me if you disagree.
GOODNESS — the quality of being good; praiseworthy character; moral excellence. The Bible speaks often of the goodness of God (Ex. 33:19; Rom. 2:4). God’s goodness consists of righteousness, holiness, justice, kindness, grace, mercy, and love. Goodness is also one of the fruits of the Spirit that should characterize Christian believers (Gal. 5:22). Christians are called to goodness, even as God the Father is perfect and good (Matt. 5:48).
God is described as "good" in the Bible. He is also described as: holy, loving, kind, just, righteous. Do you find that those who reject God and his moral code (the law) are good? What about the result of those who reject God's law? They (cause: those who refuse God) offer only death, disease and destruction (effect: the result of a departure from God's law). You wouldn't argue that rejecting God's program for the world and the resulting action is good would you? When men depart from God, they depart from goodness. Those who reject the truth (e.g. false teachers or the people who believe them) cause evil (that which is opposed to good). (Jn 10:10).
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "I'm a Strong Atheist, Jesus Mythicist, and Anti-Big Banger."
You say "strong" atheist. Are you strongly opposed to a God that you do not believe in? If you do not believe that there is a God, why do you have a strong opinion about him? If there is no God, wouldn't a more appropriate emotion be blasé (if "strong" refers to emotion)?
Do you dislike those who believe in God or practice a religion? Just some religions or are you an equal opportunity critic of religion?
What theory do you hold as to how we got here? You said Jesus is a myth. If you found that writings about him took place before 100 years after his death, would it help to change your mind about what people wrote about him considering how other myths get started historically?
If you believe other writings of history, please tell us what tests you use to authenticate their accuracy? Do you apply these same tests of authenticity (if any) to other historical works or just Bible? If you apply different standards for the Bible, please explain why.
Who do think makes a better witness as to occurrences that happened back when Jesus lived--eyewitness to events or us today? Do you think that the men who died for the cause of Christ believed what they wrote?
If everything you believed about Jesus was wrong, would you want to know?
"A Weak Atheist is someone who lacks positive belief in any gods. This is often confused with Agnostic. A Strong Atheist is someone who believes that gods do not exist."
I like to give atheists the benefit of the doubt--you believe in God but you hate him. But, if you are a "strong atheist" as defined here then God calls you a fool. That's not me calling you a fool, that is God calling you a fool (Ps 53:1). So why bother speaking about God (or the lack thereof) at all? Why are you interested in a theology website? What do you hope to accomplish?
"Theists do have a tendency to be really annoying..."
Men are fallen creatures but God is perfect. Christians will be made into Christ's likeness. Many of us have a long way to go.
"Satanism and Buddhism are the only religions I've found to be respectable."
At least you are consistent. Buddhism is the atheism of Hinduism. Why Satan? Because you love his wickedness and rebellion (or lack thereof)? He is not that impressive. He was likely made shortly before man (Ge 2:1). He's been around for a long time so he is very intelligent but ultimately he's a loser and he knows it. That's like knowing the end of a football game because you heard the score on the radio, then going home to watch a reply of the game on Tivo and rooting for the loser (Rev 20:14). God wins in the end. Why don't you want to be on the winning team? Will you still be shaking your fists at God in hell?
"Christianity is probably the worst religion I've seen, but Islam is really close."
So you are an equal-opportunity religion hater. Consistent again. But Christianity is not a religion. It is trust in a person. No one likes religion. But God's law is perfect. Does any bit of your heart still tell you that God's law is good?
The Bible says that Christians are odd aliens of the world (1 Pet 2:11). Muslims (e.g. Arabs [though not all Arabs are Muslim of course]) were said to be a wild ass of a people (Ge 16:12). God predicted our behavior.
"[Got here by parents. Universe always existed...]"
The apostle Peter said men would talk like you in the end times (2 Pet 3:4). They did historically too (e.g. a Greek thinking type vs. a Jewish thinking type [1 Cor 1:22-23]). What do you think of the Grand Canyon? Does it look to you like something dramatic happened to the earth to have created such a big hole (e.g. the flood) as given in the Bible?
"[Evidence for Jesus being an allegory is quite compelling..."
I would be easy to dismiss Jesus if he were only an allegory. But the evidence does not point in that direction. I don't know any other man who spoke like him and did the things he did.
"I've seen evidence...Jesus was created as an allegory."
I do not doubt that men have said this about him, his life, what he came to do, who he said he was, etc. He seems to have been put to every test known to man and he has passed each and every one. There will be another test tomorrow (usually they are old heresies revisited). Oprah will likely promote the next one soon.
"Comparison with other documents, plausibility, comparison with archeology, internal consistency."
And does the Bible pass your test? If not, where does it fail the test?
"I wonder, do you apply the same standards to other historical documents that you apply to the Bible? Do you believe that Emperor Vespasian cured a blind man by spitting in his eyes? Do you believe that Muhammad flew to heaven on a Pegasus? Do you believe that Apollonius of Tyana raised the dead? Do you believe Joseph Smith found some gold tablets that he translated by using magical gems? Do you believe that 75 million years ago Xenu brought billions of people to the planet earth, dropped them into volcanoes and killed them with hydrogen bombs?"
I believe the Bible over any man-made book. We probably have history right for the most part. I do not believe that Emperor Vespasian cured a blind man of his blindness but I believe Jesus did. I do not believe that Muhammad flew to heaven on a pegasus. I think Muhammad took the teachings of Christianity and perverted them time and time again. I think he was demonic and used as a tool of Satan. I do not believe that Apollonius of Tyana raised anyone from the dead. Scripture said there would be many false christs (Mt 24:11).
"Do you believe Joseph Smith found some gold tablets that he translated by using magical gems?"
No, I think that Joseph Smith translated Egyptian papyri. He did not understand what he was reading and his lies continue to deceive.
"Do you believe that 75 million years ago Xenu brought billions of people to the planet earth, dropped them into volcanoes and killed them with hydrogen bombs?"
No, I find no evidence for this.
"That's exactly the problem. If we had some eyewitness reports about Jesus I'd be inclined to believe he existed. But we don't have a single one."
We have Matthew, Mark, Luke and John--all eyewitnesses to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
"[Apostles dying for their belief] The Heaven's Gate cult members died for their beliefs, but that doesn't mean that comet Swift-Tuttle has an alien spacecraft inside it."
The apostles were known to be respectable men in their community. There is no evidence that they were odd in any way.
"I used to be a Christian. Even after becoming an Atheist I believed that there was a historical Jesus. Then I investigated all the evidence I could get my hands on and it convinced me that Jesus never existed. [P]lease don't bore me with appeals to forgeries found in Josephus."
Josephus was a respected historian (like Luke)--top notch. His writing help to affirm the veracity of scripture not deny it.
See:
Response to comment [from a Satanist]: "The Bible is riddled with errors (TOL deception)."
What errors?
"[Would Christ qualify to be our savior if he was not virgin born? Not God in human flesh]...Sure, why not?"
Christ would not qualify to be man's savior had he not been born of a virgin. To identify with man, Jesus had to be born a man. But this man was different. He was also God (earthly mother/heavenly father) [Ro 5:15]. Because Jesus came to live the perfect life that you and I could not, the Father could accept his sacrifice on behalf of mankind for those who would come to him.
Jesus was God and man. His sacrifice was perfect (being God) and his identification was perfect (being man, son of David [royal line]; Mary [priestly line]). He was/is the one and only person who could save mankind from their sins. God does not wink at sin. Every sin must be paid for by blood (Heb 9:22). If there was another way, God would have considered it (Mt 26:39). Nevertheless, Christ came in full submission to the father. Because of God's commitment to holiness, wrath was poured out on his own son to save mankind. The cross reveals God's opinion of sin.
"[Virgin birth] Matthew said it and he was basing that off a mistranslation of a non-Messianic prophecy."
Where did Matthew deny the virgin birth?
"Jesus [did not say he] was divine."
"Jesus was [Mistaken or non-existent]."
Mistaken--(or insane): men did not perceive him to be insane; reading scripture reveals to any man that this could not be so; reputable modern psychologists believe he is more sane than any other man.
Non-existent: denies history. You did not answer how you test the veracity of the Bible and how that test differs for other historical documents.
"There is no revealed word. Just an old book filled with errors."
There is likely one on your coffee table (you heap coals of fire on your head) [Pr 25:22]. What errors?
"Have you read the Bible?"
Yes, I have read the Bible.
Response to comment [from an atheist]: [Goodness— the quality of being good; praiseworthy character; moral excellence.] "Praiseworthy" to whom? Who decides which characteristics are "good" or convey "moral excellence?"
God has determined good and evil. His law is perfect (Ps 19:7) and it is written on men's hearts (Ro 2:15).
[God’s goodness consists of righteousness, holiness, justice, kindness, grace, mercy, and love.] "...And these things are also defined from various points of view - what's 'holy' or 'righteous' to one may be 'blasphemy' or 'wicked' to another."
Evil men call evil good and good evil (Isa 5:20). When you put man's law over God's law (Ac 5:29), the result is: death, theft and destruction (Jn 10:10).
"...[Y]ou haven't even gotten around the fact that 'goodness' is based on perspective - and don't even get me started on 'perfection' (I don't even think that it exists as anything more than an idea)."
God says differently. The law is perfect (Ps 19:7). You can try to move the goal post but God is the referee. He will not allow this (Mt 5:18). This is his universe, not yours.
"[God's moral code is good]...Not from the perspective of those who worship your "god" - but from the perspective of people who don't..."
The Bible defines people as good (in Christ) and evil (captive). Satan has men in his clinches (Jn 12:31). God will have the last word (Re 20:14).
"Considering that I don't believe in your 'god' or 'morality' in general, I couldn't really accept this 'code' anyway: from my perspective, it's just another social control mechanism designed to keep the individual subservient to the established order - and furthermore it's just one of many..."
Christians do not seek to control you. They merely present the facts and you do with them what you will. Rebellious children snub their noses at their parents. If their parents tell them that the stove is hot; "Don't touch the pans"--some children can't help themselves. They will suffer the consequences. Men have a choice as to what to do with God's son. God has been more than fair. He wishes for all men to repent and come to him (Jn 5:40), but the fact is most will not (Mt 7:14). His hand of mercy is extended. One day he will let go if that is what you choose.
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "This statement shows your ignorance of the Satanist movement - you might want to actually pick up a copy of 'The Satanic Bible' some day and educate yourself. Don't worry, you won't become 'demon possessed'."
Satan has always desired to be worshipped. There are some fools willing to oblige. Christians study the real deal--the Bible. It helps to detect frauds.
Response to comment [from a Satanist]: "I'm reminded of the time when I was accused of being against Christians."
You classify yourself as "Christian" on this thread. Yet, you deny the virgin birth and the deity of Jesus--two pillars of the Christian faith and the difference between heaven and hell. I have the distinct impression that you are attempting to mislead others (Ga 1:8). Tell me where I am wrong.
Response to comment [from an atheist]: [Genesis written badly]...
God has been accused of not being good in this thread. God is good, therefore he reveals to man what good is--not the other way around. It has also been argued: Jesus was not virgin born; Jesus is not God; God condones murder (even infanticide), genocide, slavery; Genesis is written badly and with numerous errors, etc. Opponents of the Bible have zero evidence for their claims. The Bible and God's character stand against these ridiculous charges.
Just because murder (including infanticide) is recorded in the Bible, it does not mean that God condones it. God has never approved of slavery (he freed slaves actually). Just because men have exchanged God's truth for a lie (e.g. evolution); it does not change truth. Genesis is written accurately and perfectly.
In the Bible, God judged men time and time again for their repeated wickedness. This is his right. He will do it again and he does not apologize for it. All that God does is good and just. God would not be good if he was not just.
Christians believe that the Bible is true--period. Those who hate God also hate his goodness. In a futile attempt, they try to refine goodness. They are moral lepers. Men do not live up to the light that God has given them. Neither do they glorify God. Their foolish hearts are darkened. Men cannot know God or understand him in anyway with a depraved heart.
Evil men do not come to God because they are afraid that their deeds will be exposed. Like roaches under a rock, they hide from the light lest the rock be lifted up and they are exposed for what they are (J. MacArthur). Read Romans.
Like Satan, unregenerate man thinks he has all the answers. But men's wisdom will add up to less than nothing. God is the giver of all wisdom.
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "[D]o not be distracted by the details...[T]hat is where the devil is."
You may be right. Still, I can't help but thinking that the word of God may one day cut through the false teaching.
"I do what I think is right with my God."
Should we follow our way or God's way (Jn 14:6)? How do we know if we have gone off course (e.g. by feelings or comparing our beliefs and actions to the word of God)? How can we know we are saved? As one preacher said, "I had a reservation at a hotel and they said, 'Depart from me I never knew you.'" Do you believe in Lone Ranger Christianity? Do you think that most people seek to please the creator (Ex 23:2)?
"I’m a...Biblical Unitarian – read “one God, the Father” (aka – The Holy Spirit) (non-Trinitarian)..."
Have you considered that the word Elohim is plural (Ge 1:1)? Henry Morris wrote:
"...A Dispensationalist (Acts 2)– The “church, which is his body” was a secret (not a mystery). A secret even from Jesus…"
Since Jesus was the second person of the trinity and involved in the decision making (Ge 1:26) of creation (Ge 1:1), do you think that the father kept him out of the loop regarding redemption for man? Do you think that it was Paul instead who revealed the mystery of the gospel (Ro 16:25) without Jesus being clued in? "The mystery kept" was not kept from Jesus. He revealed it (Ro 16:25-26). The mystery had been hidden, then revealed to saints (Col 1:26). But the knowledge of the mystery of God was not hidden from God (Col 2:2). Rather, it was known by "both...the Father and...Christ...in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col 2:2-3). It is the mystery of Christ not the mystery kept from Christ (Col 4:3). Father, Son and Holy Spirit knew the plan: "God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory (1 Ti 3:16)."
..."An annihilationist – The evil dead will be destroyed completely (body/soul)..."
Hell is a real place where the unrepentant will go. The Bible does not teach that wicked men will be destroyed (e.g. annihilationism); but rather--destroyed from God's presence (2 Th 1:9). The sinner will live forever apart from God.
..."An equality of women guy (Galatians 3:28)…totally, BTW (Apostleship, Ministries, Marriage, etc.). Get the definition of “head” correct and you can’t miss it."
Like order in the godhead: Father, Son, Holy Spirit-- one is not above the other (Jn 10:30). They merely have an order to them.
Does Anyone Else Feel
Theologically Alone?