Open Theism

Response to comment [from a Christian]:  "...Outside of TOL, I'd say Open Theists are definitely outnumbered...Irresistible grace"

"Mr. Religion":  Considering the depth of depravity of the human heart, do you think that man can resist God all the way to hell?

I hold the open view.  Do you think that settled viewers do damage in the church?  Do you think that the book of life is an editable document?     

"...if Open Theism is flawed, then your arguments do not stand. This is an underlying assumption, not an argument..."

A person will read scripture very differently coming from the Calvinist or Armenian point of view vs. an open theist's view.  The foundation will taint biblical understanding.  For example:  Jn 6:37.  I maintain that here you may read scripture as it written to mean--if yesterday your name was not in the book of life, today it may be if you humble yourself before God. 

"That's too bad. [OV]...is a very flawed system of thought.  I believe the church has always consisted of those who trust in the settled purposes of God."

God does have a settled purpose.  He is calling out a people for his namesake.  "Whosoever" means whosoever (Joe 2:32) may come to him to be saved.   

"Only those "called according to His purpose" (Ro 8:28), will be enabled by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3), to believe in the Son, for Scripture says:  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day Jn 6:44."

And, it is God's will that all men be saved (2 Pet 3:9).  The Father draws all but few respond (Mt 7:14).  As J. Vernon McGee said if you answer, you are the "elect". 

"So Joe 2:32 and Jn 3:16 are not universalistic teachings, but detail who will believe in the Son to be saved..." 

Joe 2:32 is universal "whoever calls"; Jer 33:3 is universal "call to me"; Ac 2:21 is universal "whoever calls"; Ro 10:13 is universal "whoever calls".  Jn 3:16 is universal "God so loved the world..."  God did not love some of the world.  He loved the whole world.  Jesus died for every man.  Otherwise the offence of rejecting him is not worthy of hell.  To say that God did not die for all and make his offer of life available to all is to diminish God's mercy.  

"...the Holy Spirit amongst sinners named in the Lamb's Book of Life since the foundation of the world. Re 13:8."

The "great" work is the work of salvation (Jn 10:29).  When you are found in Christ you cannot loose your salvation.  What is so "great" about a book of life filled out already?  That's not great.  That's a mere formality.  Our lives are not the work of an accountant.  Our choices have consequences. 

While we can breathe we have the opportunity to choose to live with God for eternity.  The kingdom "prepared" since the foundation of the world is a place.  God can make a new place next door to you.  It expands every day a man humbles himself before his creator (Mt 25:34).  God has secret ways of getting to our hearts 1 Cor 2:9.  He allows us to participate in his wonderful plan. 

God is not ashamed of any man who will call out to him (Heb 11:16).  Have you ever had a plan but were unsure how to carry it out.  God has a plan and he is sure how to carry it out.  It's easy to carry out a plan that is written.  It's hard to carry out a plan that is not fully written.  He has revealed his will in his will.  I'm sure he still has a few tricks up his sleeve to woo the hearts of men. 

I am glad he doesn't give up on us.  

"Why then did Jesus Christ not pray for the world? John 17:9."

Perhaps that is our job.  We'd do well to lift him up (Jn 12:32).  His work is finished (Jn 19:30).  Ours isn't.

"To love and pray for the world? Christians are taught to not love the world. If a person loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. I Jn 2:15 
It was not the job of Jesus to pray for the world, and it is not the job of Christians to love the world.  That tells me, nobody is praying for this world. The wicked unbelievers of this world are certainly not praying for themselves.  God purposes to create a new heavens and new earth after he destroys this one and no amount of prayer will change that judgment of God upon this corrupted and wicked world.

The Bible makes it clear that judgment is coming.  But our witness (Mk 12:31) and our prayer (1 Thes 5:17) makes a difference.  We are to be Christ's disciples (Jn 9:30).  We are not to love the world or the things in it--that is, the world system, the flesh and the devil.  We still share Christ with others (1 Cor 5:10, Mk 16:15).  If a man loves the world (system, flesh, and devil) then the love of the Father is not in him. 

"No mortal can "lift up" the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the work of God, alone, done according to divine power, alone, and covenant between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, alone."

If your views are a reflection of your church's teachings, I would highly recommend you search out a new church. You are receiving very bad teaching, or else you are not being taught at all, and need to find yourself a mature, wise, Christian pastor to help you understand these truths."

Mortals did lift Jesus up.  They put him on a cross and murdered him.  As Moses (a mortal man) lifted the rod to show God's power, we show God's power in our changed lives.  If God does all of the heavy lifting alone why did he call disciples?  God certainly could do all of his work alone but he is gracious.  He allows men to participate in his plan.  How useful is a person who is convinced that he can do nothing at all?  Who would you recommend as a wise pastor?  A Calvinist?

You quoted Gordon Clark:  "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."  When did God cease being creative?  Did he change his mind with the wicked men in Nineveh?  Did he learn anything new with Abraham (Ge 22:12)?  

Time and space are real (Rev 8:1).  We do not live in a Star Trek alternate quantum reality in the space-time continuum.       

"For whom will our prayers and witness make a difference? Only those whom the Father draws to the Son through the calling of the gospel . . .the elect sons of God.

Trick is, we believers have no clue which souls God is drawing and calling out of this world. So while we do not pray or expect the world at large to be saved, we do love our neighbors (all persons God brings us into contact with), and witness; proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ indiscriminately to them, praying for each, that God might bestow His saving grace upon them.

We love and pray for individuals as we are led by the Holy Spirit, and leave the rest up to the wisdom and mercies of God.

Has anyone here EVER prayed for the whole world, and for the salvation of every single soul that has ever lived?"

The elect--the who-so-ever wills, will be saved.  The who-so-ever won'ts, won't be (J. Vernon McGee). 

"[W]hile we do not pray or expect the world at large to be saved...[we] proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ indiscriminately...praying for each, that God might bestow His saving grace upon them."

Why proclaim the gospel if ultimately you cannot make a difference?  You had said that God already bestowed or did not bestow his grace upon each individual at the foundation of the world? 

"We love and pray for individuals as we are led by the Holy Spirit."

Does the Holy Spirit exclude some from your prayer?  If so, who?

"Has anyone here ever prayed for the whole world, and for the salvation of every single soul that has ever lived?"

Is God's grace not big enough for the whole world?  How big is God's grace?  Is it big enough to encompass 50% of the world? 25%? 10%?  It sure would be cruel of God to create a being that never had a chance to be included in heaven.  I would have to start agreeing with his enemies that he is unjust.  Thankfully, he is just.  No one will be able to say otherwise in eternity.

"Our sins did not cause the cross work of Jesus Christ."

Jesus died for the world--your sin and mine.  The whole world after the fall was in need of a savior.  Jesus willingly went to the cross.

"Our sins did not cause Christ to die. The Triune God covenanting to save a people from the sentence of death and Godly wrath, caused Christ to die."

Christ died for sins past, present and future--looking forward to or back from the cross.

"All of salvation is of God.  Disciples bear witness to the sovereign workings of God.  They are not helpers..."

This is a hard core predestination view that I do not share.  What is a disciple?  A potted plant?

"It is apparent you have no conception of Godly grace. God does all for us, that we cannot possibly do for ourselves. Our works are not needed."

We are saved by grace not works (Eph 2:8).  Are the elect more special than other sinners?  Are they lovelier to God in some way?  We should have a heart for the lost (Jn 9:4).  It is the character of the Lord is to seek that which was lost (Lk 19:10).  If we love him, his concerns should be our concerns. 

God has made the redeemed a holy vessel to be used for his purposes.  We are filled with the holy spirit and we are to share the gift with others (2 Ti 2:21).  We are to be used, not sit on a shelf to look pretty.  When the Lord comes, we may be worn but used as a favorite bowl from the kitchen.  It's the least we can do for the master.     

[What is "great" in Jn 10:29] " It is exactly what will keep the sons of God from being thrown into hellfire and suffering the second death!"

Jesus did great things (e.g. miracles).  He said we will do greater things (e.g. sharing the gospel message) which saves people (Jn 14:12).   Why would Paul attempt to persuade Agrippa of the gospel message if it would not matter?  Agrippa "almost" believed (Ac 26:28).  Paul tried to persuade him to save him.  Paul delivered the message.  God would have done the saving had Agrippa repented. 

Why does God ask us to pray with fervency if it makes no difference in the process of one's salvation (James 5:16)?  Do our prayers not "availeth much"?  We can move the heart of God (Jon 3:10).  God is free to save anyone he chooses (Mt 22:14).   

"The proclamation of the gospel will make a difference for those elect God is calling to faith in Jesus Christ.

If the elect are elect regardless of one telling them the gospel why tell them the gospel?

"[T]riune Godhead covenanted together to work grace for an elect people, named and chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. That grace is bestowed when each are called and regenerated to new spiritual life by the Holy Spirit."

Why would God continue to allow people to be created who would never have a chance to enter into heaven?  That would be cruel.  If a parent has ten children, would not he/she be a terrible parent to seek only 8 of them?  We know God's will--that none perish.  We know God's being:  good and loving, merciful.  We know he is a good shepherd not a bad one.  Are you willing to diminish God's love and mercy to maintain this doctrine?      

If the elect of the world are born with a special status (an elitist notion) what if they remain in their reprobate state?  Man has free will.  He is free to reject God.

"Those reprobate souls, who were never 'known' by God or named in the Lamb's Book of Life..."

Every saved saint was once a reprobate.  How is the unbeliever any different from the believer before salvation?  We are not to think too highly of ourselves (Ro 12:3).  If our desires are not God's desires than our desires must change not his. 

"God's grace is not a commodity that can be quantified..."

When you limit God's grace for a special few you quantify it.

"Grace is a declaration of clemency. How often does your Colorado Governor extend clemency to all the inmates of the State Prisons? And when your Governor does execute a Pardon, can you measure it, as you have suggested?"

A man has to accept clemency to be spared.  One man rejected the governor's clemency.  He died in prison. 

Because Christ's blood was enough, God accepts any person who will humble himself before him.  To do otherwise would diminish Christ's work on the cross.  Jesus asked the Father to forgive his murderers.  Governors don't do that.  Governors are men.  God's ways are higher than ours not lower. 

The Father "so loved the world".  When we see our own sin for what it is (the exceedingly sinfulness of sin as John MacArthur says) we understand how unappealing we are to God.  When we understand how unappealing we are, we begin to comprehend his grace (Ro 5:8).  Christ did not die for only the super-duper saints.  He died for sinners.    

"This is backwards thinking. Instead of feeling sorry for dirty, rotten sinners, and worrying about them getting their chances in heaven, look at it as a miracle that God has saved any at all..."

Men responded with additional hatred for God when he performed a miracles.  God does not owe us anything.  That is why the gift available to all is so gracious.  It is less gracious if it is available to only some.  Jesus associated with those dirty, rotten sinners.  He was rebuked for doing so by the religious leaders. 

Christians are often accused of acting like they are better than everyone else.  We are supposed to realize that we aren't. 

"Are you setting yourself up to be superior to John Calvin? 

God's word is the final word.  John Calvin's teachings are rooted in Greek paganism.

"That is pure pride, and it is sin for you to think you know better than real theologians."

We need to break with tradition when men teach in error (Mt 15:2).  We need a return to the word of God.  We should not be deceived by engrained pagan teaching (Col 2:8). 

"[Y]ou lead others astray from sound scriptural doctrines, for which you will be severely judged."

To do otherwise would diminish Christ's work on the cross...What diminishes the cross work of Jesus Christ, is the false teaching that His death proves to not be powerful enough to save all..."

You make my point, Christ's death was enough to save the whole world not just an elite few. 

Response to comment [from an OVer]:  "They claim God predestines or decrees that prayer will be instrumental in the process.  You are correct that prayer does make a difference and is a free expression of man, not a deterministic act of God. As well, the gospel is freely preached persuasively. One can receive or reject it in real space time. These things are not settled in eternity past by the decree or foreknowledge of God. We are culpable for what we do with the Spirit's influence which is influential, not causative (relationships trump robotics).

I agree with you.  Space is real.  Time is really occurring and our prayers matter.  When did God agree with the Calvinist  to abandon his creativity, his choices and his will?  God does not change (Mal 3:6).  He has always had creativity (Ge 1:1), choices (Jon 3:10) and will (2 Pet 3:9).  Who knows if God will repent of the evil that he has planned for our unsaved family members (Jonah 3:9).  Men don't believe even through one was raised from the dead (Lk 16:29).  They love their sin too much and will not repent (Jn 3:19).  It will take all of heaven and earth to persuade their wicked hearts (Mt 17:20).  I'd hate to ask God for a miracle because we respond so badly to his miracles but that is just what it will take to get people saved (Eph 1:20).  That would be a great thing (Jn 14:12).  The depth of depravity of the human heart never ceases to amaze me (Jer 17:9).  We have a battle on our hands (Eph 6:12).         

Response to comment [from a Christian]:  "[D]oes one have to convert to Calvinism to be saved?"

How is the Calvinist different from the Roman Catholic if he/she is not willing to challenge doctrines against the word of God.  Protestants preached sola scriptura.  They must be willing to be Bereans all over again where they have gone astray.  Anything less is idolatry.   

"[N]o one is certain and secure of his own predestination and salvation."

Would we be being presumptuous to believe the apostle John (1 Jn 5:13)?  A man cannot know that he will be saved until he is in fact saved.  When he is saved, then he can know he is saved. 

Response to comment [from a Christian]:  "In Him we live and move and have our being."

You move. God can be more than us but he cannot be less. God moves. He still moves in the world today, just as he did in the beginning: "And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters (Ge 1:2)."

Aren't you glad God is still moving in the lives of believers and unbelievers? We still need his mercy today.

Response to comment [from a Christian]:  "[Y]ou need to define what the future is."

The future is what common sense says it is--It has not happened yet.  There is no DVD in heaven that God can fast forward.  That would be absurd.  If that were the case, then God is cruel not to fast forward through the DVD.  He would be an evil voyeurist, watching with popcorn in hand, a soap opera of the sufferings in the world. 

That is not who God is.  He is still giving the world the chance to repent because he is merciful (2 Pe 3:9).  He asks his people to hold on until we all get home to heaven (Jas 1:12).  We are still waiting for a few stragglers who will be our brethren in eternity.  They are not lovely today (nor are we but by the grace of God); but they will be made into Christ-likeness.    

Will Duffy Cross-Examines Matt Slick Pt. 3, 4, 5 kgov.com

I’m as much of an Armenian as Jesus was.  I’ as much of a Calvinist as Jesus was…