New Page 0

"Pope John Paul II used to beat himself with a belt and sleep on a bare floor to bring himself closer to Christ, a book published Wednesday says.

The late pope had a particular belt for self-flagellation and brought it with him to his summer residence, according to the book, "Why he is a Saint: The True story of John Paul II." Story

I have a better idea.

Repent. Be saved. Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30, Re 2:5,16; 3:3.

Catholics need to repent. Come to God on his terms--as a sinner (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30, Re 2:5,16; 3:3). Understand what true repentance is.

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway." - some guy named Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:27

McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:43). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Hughes, R. B., Laney, J. C., & Hughes, R. B. (2001). Tyndale concise Bible commentary. Rev. ed. of: New Bible companion. 1990.; Includes index. The Tyndale reference library (553). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

Did you already discuss this? I'm sorry. Maybe we should move on to ridiculous item number 12,234,233:

Purgatory Project Says It Aids

Souls Suffering in Flames

In Rome, there is a church called the Church

of the Suffering Souls that has a small museum

called the Holy Souls Museum. In it

are relics, prayer books and clothing that

were supposedly touched by holy souls

who were allowed to leave purgatory and

return to their family or religious clergy and

beg them for Masses and prayers.

There is now a Purgatory Project that says

it exists to provide aid for the souls in purgatory

(www.purgatoryproject.com). Their

website says that anyone can help those

who are suffering by registering the names

of people who have died. The goal is to get

all registered souls released from purgatory

as quickly as possible. Those souls which

are not released immediately are still helped

as they are elevated to a greater degree of

purification and will have to endure less suffering

in purgatory.

The main benefit the souls will receive is

the priceless value of hundreds of Masses

being said each year for "all souls registered

in the Purgatory Project." You are invited

to join in with fasting and Mass intentions

to the extent you are able. Your own

prayers and offerings are very important for

the success of the prayers the Purgatory

Project offers for your registered souls. The

more prayer power the Purgatory Project can

gather the better!

You can register as many souls as you wish.

A few people have registered several thousand

souls. But the main thing is that any

and all souls are welcome! They are all infinitely

valuable and worthwhile to Our Lord

who shed His Precious Blood for each of

them. There is a firm and holy intention of

continuing the Purgatory Project for many

years to come. Please come back often - and

fast and pray with us as you are able - this is

very holy and important work and we are

totally committed to it." Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries.

My apologies. What else are those quacks doing? Let's see......I think you've already seen the Pope kissing the Koran. How 'bout:

Praying Before Remains of

Pope Remits Sins

Pope Benedict XVI announced a special plenary

indulgence for those who pray before

the remains of 13th century pope, St.

Celestine V during the 800th anniversary of

his birth. His remains will be on pilgrimage

during the year so that the faithful can receive

the indulgence. Celestine V is remembered

for promulgating a pardon for sins. He

decided that those who confessed and were

sincerely repentant, and visited the Basilica

of Santa Maria di Collemaggio would receive

the remission of sins and the absolution of

punishment. Until then, a plenary indulgence

was only granted to those who went to the

Holy Land as crusaders. (Zenit.org, 8/26/09. Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries)

They have no interest in the truth so let's just observe how they defend these absurd things.

Ever so sorry. I'd hate to waste your time. Perhaps you'd like to comment on:

Learn From Mary

Pope Benedict XVI is encouraging Catholics

to learn from the Blessed Virgin how to

follow the Holy Spirit with docility and recognize

His voice in daily life. He gave the

message at a Marian celebration after reciting

the Rosary at the Grotto of Our Lady of

Lourdes. "The great Feast of Pentecost invites

us to meditate upon the relationship

between the Holy Spirit and Mary, a very

close, privileged, indissoluble relationship,"

the pontiff affirmed. He continued: "Mary's

immaculate heart, in perfect consonance with

the divine Son, is the temple of the Spirit of

truth, where every word and every event are

kept in faith, hope and charity." The pontiff

affirmed that in "Mary's school we too learn

to recognize the Holy Spirit's presence in our

life, to listen to his inspirations and to follow

them with docility." He expressed the hope

that Catholics will "walk with Mary according

to the Spirit." (Zenit.org, 5/31/09). Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries.

Mary's heart is truth now.

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Her soul doth magnify the Lord. That's in the Bible somewhere too. Not that you care."

Somewhere hmm?

I care that people believe the truth. Does it matter to you that your religion teaches doctrines which are not biblical? Or do you love their lies? (Eze 13:19). How many examples do you need?

Here's another:

Mary Enabled God to Enter

Mary's "yes" is the door through which God

was able to enter the world to become man.

So it is that Mary is truly and profoundly

involved in the Mystery of the Incarnation,

of our salvation. The Gospel tells us that

John took his mother Mary "to his own

home." But the Greek text is far deeper, far

richer. We could translate it: He took Mary

into his inner life, his inner being, into the

depths of his being. The Second Vatican

Council invites priests to look to Mary as

the perfect model for their existence, invoking

her as "Mother of the supreme and eternal

Priest, as Queen of Apostles, and as Protectress

of their ministry." The Council continues,

"priests should always venerate and

love her, with a filial devotion and worship."

Mary loves them for two reasons: because

they are more like Jesus, the supreme love of

her heart, and because, like her, they are committed

to the mission of proclaiming, bearing

witness to and giving Christ to the world.

The Holy Curé d'Ars states, "Jesus Christ,

after giving us all that he could give us,

wanted further to make us heirs to his most

precious possession, that is, his Holy

Mother." (Zenit.org, 8/27/09)

Now Mary is the door.

Get your eye off Mary. Get your eye on Jesus (John 10:7, 9).

The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day, and the idols will totally disappear.
-- Isaiah 2:17-18

Stop changing the truth of God into a lie (Ro 1:25; Isa 44:20).

See:

No Mary Worship http://www.vananne.com/culttoasters/No%20Mary%20Worship.htm

Response to comment [from an atheist]: "Sounds rather wacky. Makes me thankful I don't have such wacky beliefs."

The atheist and the biblical Christian agree. It is supposed to make you thankful that you do not have such wacky beliefs. Satan wants you to throw the baby out with the bath water.

See your legacy Roman Catholics?

At any rate, the baby grew up. He sits at the right hand of the Father.

Response to comment [from a "Christian"]: [The apostle Paul] "You were there?"

Were you? I can't get that song out of my head--

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the Czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain...

Response to comment [from a "Christian"]: "I suppose you thought you had some point in posting this?"

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [YouTube cover of Sympathy for the Devil]

Thanks Spitfire. Oh by the way, you're drooling--that's the most embarrassing drool I've ever seen.

I didn't want you to embarrass yourself.

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "If you think Paul is crazy, take that up with him."

The apostle Paul thought it would be crazy for people to point to him (1 Cor 3:7). A Christian will point to Christ never himself. Ask yourself: Does Rome point to Rome or to Jesus? Do priests point to themselves for forgiveness of sin or to Jesus?

See:

No Papal Authority http://www.vananne.com/culttoasters/No%20Papal%20Authority.htm

No Mediator http://www.vananne.com/culttoasters/No%20Mediator.htm

No Idolatry & False Teaching http://www.vananne.com/culttoasters/No%20Idolitry%20False%20Teaching.htm

Shall I go on?

Worship of Eucharist Unites

Religions

Thousands of Catholics approached Jesus

in the Blessed Sacrament in the Basilica of

St. Mary Major during the age-old tradition

of the 40 Hours Devotion. Although not all

of the ambassadors are Catholic, prayer

brings them to find a "common point among

all religions. During the Pope's traditional celebration

of the feast of the Body of Christ,

dozens of groups and religious communities

spent an hour of adoration at the basilica.

Monsignor Adriano Pancelli declared:

"The Eucharist is the living rock of the

Church. It's about adoring the Blessed Sacrament

and feeling that the Lord is present.

The most sublime, most high, most true and

effective mystery." (Zenit.org, 6/9/09)

Now the Eucharist is the living rock. A wafer, Peter...who cares? (1 Cor. 10:4).

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "That atheists don't approve of our beliefs? Why should that bother me? Frankly, I'm glad they're on your side and not mine, if that's indeed the case."

No heart for the lost, hmm? It was the mission of the Lord, but who cares about all that. :idunno: Luke 15:4–6. And you say you have his spirit? 1 Jn 4:3.

"You know how they say there's a way that, to man, seems right..."

Careful. If you know this verse and continue in your idolatry, you only earn yourself a hotter place in hell (James 5:3).

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core [Jude 11].

"Jude has already given three examples of apostate groups: the children of Israel, the angels who rebelled, and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Now we are given another three by way of illustration, and these three are individuals.

“Woe unto them!” The word for “woe” is the Greek word ouai. The very pronunciation of this word is a wail—“Ouai, ouai!” It denotes a wail of grief or of denunciation. Here it is more a wail of denunciation, but it is both. Of these apostates whom Jude has just identified, he now says, “Woe unto them!”

“For they have gone in the way of Cain.” Cain was a religious man but a natural man. He believed in God and believed in religion, but he did it after his own will. He denied that he was a sinner, rejected redemption by blood, and thought that he could come his own way to God. Hebrews 11:4 certainly tells the story: “By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.” Cain is dead also, yet he speaks. The way of Cain is the way of a man who refused to bring a little lamb which pointed to Christ. In other words, Cain did not come to God by faith. He did not believe God when He said that man was to bring a little lamb for a sacrifice, that without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, and that the penalty must be paid. Cain thought that he could come to God his own way, and that is the picture of the apostate today. The apostate calls himself a liberal and a modernist; but, my friend, this is as old as the Garden of Eden. Right outside the Garden of Eden, Cain was a modernist and a liberal. He believed in religion and God, but he did it his own way, not God’s way.

“And ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward.” Here we have the error of Balaam; in 2 Peter 2:15 it is the way of Balaam; and in Revelation 2:14 it is the doctrine of Balaam.

In 2 Peter we see the thing that was the undermining of the man; that is, Balaam was guilty of covetousness which is idolatry. He was a hired preacher. He wanted to make a buck with the gift he had, a gift that was apparently God-given. This was the way of Balaam, and it was his undoing. A man can seek for something other than money, however. He can seek for prominence, for popularity, for fame, for applause, or for position. There are many different things which would put a man in the way of Balaam. Jude says that this marks the apostate.

In the Book of Revelation, you have the doctrine of Balaam. Numbers 22–25 tells us that this man could not bring a curse against the nation Israel, and so he told Balak that by sending the Moabite women into the camp of Israel, he would be able to bring fornication and idolatry into their homes through mixed marriages. You can be sure of one thing: from Genesis to Revelation, God warns against the intermarriage of believers and unbelievers. You cannot condone such marriages on any basis whatsoever. It is unfortunate that too many young people are not warned of this because it has resulted in a great deal of unhappiness.

The error of Balaam here in Jude is that he thought God would have to punish Israel for their sins. He did not recognize that there is a morality that is above natural morality. He thought that a righteous God had to curse Israel. He was totally unaware of the morality of the Cross. It is taught in the Old Testament that God can maintain and does enforce His authority, but He can be just and the justifier of a believing sinner. Balaam did not understand that God would forgive the nation Israel when they turned to Him. It is sometimes difficult for someone to understand how a man can be converted. When I worked in a bank, was led to Christ, and wanted to study for the ministry, my fellow workers, most of whom were church members, could not understand how I could study for the ministry. And they had ample reason to wonder about that, by the way. They couldn’t understand that God had forgiven me and that I had a new life now. They just didn’t believe that. They didn’t believe it because they couldn’t understand it. This is the same problem that Balaam had.

“And perished in the gainsaying of Core [Korah].” You will perhaps recall that Korah led a rebellion against Moses (see Num. 16). He came to the conclusion that Moses was not the only one around who had access to God. Korah rebelled against God’s constituted authority, who was Moses. He wanted to intrude into that which was sacred. In effect he asked, “Has God only spoken to Moses? Who does Moses think he is?” Actually, Moses didn’t think too much of himself or that he had any undue qualifications; in fact, Moses wanted to disqualify himself as the leader of the people out of Egypt. But God had called Moses, and this man Korah rebelled against him. He contradicted the authority of Moses; he intruded into the office of the priests, and he died. In other words, he was a rebellious man, rebelling against God. Jude says that such rebellion characterizes the apostate.

Notice that the things which are true of these three individuals from the Old Testament are also the things which are true of apostates. Cain did not believe that you need to come to God by faith and that you need a bloody sacrifice because man is a sinner. He believed that if you have a religion, that is all you need. The apostate goes along with that. The error of Balaam is to think that a holy God must punish sin and that sinners cannot be forgiven. The apostate makes the same mistake. He says, “How in the world can the sacrifice of Christ save anyone? A man has to do this for himself.” And the apostate rebels against God as Korah did. They assume an authority that is not theirs. They stand in the pulpit and give out politics instead of giving out the Word of God. Instead of telling what God says, they tell people what they say and what they think. A man said to me some time ago, “I have dropped out of my church. I am tired of listening to a preacher who gives political economics and attempts to stand in the position of being an authority on government. He assumes that he has all knowledge, and he never uses the Word of God. He never tells what God says or what God thinks, and I’m tired of listening to him.” I know nothing about that man’s church, but I assume that that preacher is an apostate because he has the mark of the apostate. These three men from the Old Testament illustrate this to us today."

McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:862-864). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Responsibility according to privilege:

Ezek. 18:1–30; Ezek. 33:1–19; Matt. 10:11–15 Luke 9:5; 10:10–15. Matt. 11:20–24; Matt. 12:41, 42 Luke 11:31, 32. Matt. 23:31–35 Luke 11:49–51. Matt. 25:14–30 Luke 19:12–27. Mark 6:11; Luke 13:6–9; Luke 21:1–4; John 3:18, 19; John 12:48; John 15:22, 24; Acts 17:30, 31; Rom. 12:3, 6–8; Eph. 4:7; 1 Tim. 6:20

Responsibility according to opportunity and works:

Gen. 4:7; Job 34:11; Prov. 11:31; Prov. 12:14; Prov. 24:11, 12 Psa. 62:12; 2 Tim. 4:14. Isa. 3:10, 11; Isa. 5:15, 16; Isa. 24:2; Isa. 59:18; Jer. 17:10, 11; Jer. 32:19; Ezek. 7:3, 4, 27; Ezek. 9:4–6; Ezek. 16:59; Ezek. 18:4 [vs. 5–9.] Ezek. 18:19–32; Ezek. 33:18–20; Ezek. 39:24; Hos. 4:9 Hos. 12:2. Amos 3:2; Zech. 1:6; Matt. 10:14, 15 Matt. 11:24; Mark 6:11; Luke 9:5; 10:12–15. Matt. 12:37; Matt. 23:14 Luke 20:47. Mark 14:21; Luke 11:49, 50 v. 51.; Luke 12:47, 48 [See parable of the vineyard, Isa. 5:1–6. Of the farmer, Isa. 28:24–28. Of the wicked tenant farmers, Matt. 21:33–36. Of the talents, Matt. 25:14–30.]Luke 13:6–9; Luke 19:12–27; Luke 21:1–4; John 3:19, 20; John 5:45; John 9:41; John 12:48; John 15:22, 24; Rom. 2:5–12, 27; 1 Cor. 3:8, 13–15 v. 12.; 1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 2:15, 16; 2 Cor. 11:15; Gal. 6:5–10; Eph. 6:7, 8; Col. 3:25; 1 Tim. 1:13; Heb. 2:2, 3; Heb. 10:26–30; Heb. 12:25; Jas. 2:12, 13; 1 Pet. 1:17; 2 Pet. 2:20, 21; Rev. 2:23; Rev. 20:12, 13

Swanson, J., & Nave, O. (1994). New Nave's. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [I have a better idea. Repent. Be saved] "Of course, this merely engages in the False Dilemma Fallacy, a false "either/or."

Of course you remove the biblical references. That is what you people do after all. Let me just plug those back in for those interested in truth: Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30, Re 2:5,16; 3:3.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die (Ezek. 18:20)." That's pretty much either/or, yes.

"God commands all men everywhere to repent (Ac 17:30)." That's sort of either live or die, too...

"[R]epent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent (Re 2:5)." If I sat in a brothel week after week, I suppose I'd want that verse to go away, too.

"...will fight against them with the sword of My mouth (Re 2:16)." Not good. hold fast and crepent.

"...hold fast and crepent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you eas a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you (Re 3:3)." Still selling that repent thing. You may want to know him in good standing before you try to flash him a charming smile ...just thinkin' out loud here ...

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Wow, "you people"---the typical watchword of the bigot."

Ad hominem. You forgot: sexist, Islamophobic, xenophobic, homophobic and racist. "Pick the Target, Freeze It, Personalize It and Polarize It." Saul Alinsky.

Wow, "false dilemma fallacy". You get to choose your behavior (idolatry [Ex 20:2,3], perversion of the word of God, false teaching [2 Cor 4:2], making merchandise of people [2 Pe 2:3], etc.). You do not get to choose the consequences (Hos 4:6).

"You people"...'have different authorities,...believe different gospels,...worship different Christs,...are led by different spirits and we are on different path...to eternity. Compare this with the unity the apostle Paul described with those who are in one body and one Spirit, with one hope; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, on God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all (Eph 4:4-6)...

...According to many Reformers, Satan's crown jewel is the Roman Catholic religion. It is his most seductive and deceptive form of counterfeit Christianity in the world. Granted, there are many other apostate churches, but none compare in the size, power, influence and wealth to the apostate church headquartered in Rome. The problem most Catholics have is they have been indoctrinated from birth with the lie that they belong to the one true Church. By believing this lie, they have no incentive to read God's word and therefore they cannot discern truth from error. I pray you will ask God to reveal His truth to you as you abide in His Word (Proclaiming the Gospel, Vol 18 no. 4)." http://www.pro-gospel.org/x2/pdf/Vol18No4.pdf

Beautification of Hitler's Pope

"The question of whether the Pope Pius XII
did all in his power to fight the effects of the
Holocaust is still an open wound. This has
caused Pope Benedict to slow down the process
of Pope Pius' beatification pending further
research. Several Jewish groups have
protested the intention to beatify the pope,
who they say did not stand up to Adolf Hitler
as Jews were being deported to and killed in
concentration camps. Pope Pius has been
particularly criticized in Italy for not having
come to the Jewish ghetto in Rome when
more than 1,000 Jews were rounded up and
deported by Nazi troops in October 1943."
(CNS, 6/17/09)

Wow, what nice people.

"[S]eprentdove...[has]...forgotten;...tried to live gospel..."

Did you have a point to make? I'm sorry. This was not about me. This was about sharing the truth of the gospel with others.

"Sleeping on the floor gave me a bad cold so I had to revert to just giving up my pillow, and that for just an hour or two. A small spiritual sacrifice of love to bring to the altar- we do not approach our Beloved without a gift!"

You bring the gift of giving up a pillow? Are we talking feathers or down?

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "You people" is an ad hominem.

I thought it was clarifying.

You people who "...have different authorities,...believe different gospels,...worship different Christs,...are led by different spirits and we are on different path...to eternity. Compare this with the unity the apostle Paul described with those who are in one body and one Spirit, with one hope; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, on God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all (Eph 4:4-6)...

...According to many Reformers, Satan's crown jewel is the Roman Catholic religion. It is his most seductive and deceptive form of counterfeit Christianity in the world. Granted, there are many other apostate churches, but none compare in the size, power, influence and wealth to the apostate church headquartered in Rome. The problem most Catholics have is they have been indoctrinated from birth with the lie that they belong to the one true Church. By believing this lie, they have no incentive to read God's word and therefore they cannot discern truth from error. I pray you will ask God to reveal His truth to you as you abide in His Word (Proclaiming the Gospel, Vol 18 no. 4)." http://www.pro-gospel.org/x2/pdf/Vol18No4.pdf

The Bible is a very black and white book. You saved...you lost. You righteous...you wicked.

The righteous described:

Described: Ex. 33:16; 1 Sam. 13:14; Ezra 10:3; Psa. 1:1–3; Psa. 4:3; Psa. 15:1–5; Psa. 24:3–5; Psa. 37:26, 30, 31; Psa. 64:10; Psa. 84:7; Psa. 87:5, 6; Psa. 112:1–10; Psa. 119:1–3; Prov. 2:9–12; Prov. 4:18; Prov. 13:5; Prov. 25:26; Isa. 33:15, 16; Isa. 51:1; Isa. 54:13; Isa. 60:21; Isa. 62:12; Isa. 63:8; Jer. 31:12–14, 33, 34; Ezek. 18:5–9; Ezek. 44:9; Zech. 3:2, 7, 8; Matt. 5:3–10, 13–16; Matt. 7:16–20, 24–27; Matt. 12:50; Matt. 13:23, 38; Luke 6:45; Luke 18:16, 17 Matt. 19:14; Mark 10:14, 15. John 3:21; John 8:31, 32, 39, 42, 47; John 10:4, 5, 27; John 13:35; John 15:14; Acts 2:38, 47; Acts 8:36, 37; Acts 10:47; Acts 11:23, 24; Acts 18:7, 8; Rom. 1:6, 7; Rom. 6:1–23; Rom. 8:5, 6, 9, 14–16, 29, 35–39; Rom. 9:8; Rom. 15:14; Rom. 16:19; 1 Cor. 1:2, 26, 27, 30; 1 Cor. 2:12, 13; 1 Cor. 6:9–11; 1 Cor. 15:48, 49; 2 Cor. 1:12; 2 Cor. 4:1, 2; 2 Cor. 5:17, 21; Gal. 5:22–26; Eph. 1:1, 4–7; Eph. 2:1, 4–6, 10, 13, 14, 19–22; Eph. 3:17–19; Eph. 4:13–16, 22–32; Eph. 5:8; Phil. 2:15; Phil. 3:3, 7–11; Phil. 4:8; Col. 1:9–13; Col. 2:7; Col. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3; 1 Thess. 5:4, 5, 27; 2 Tim. 2:19, 21–25; Philem. 5, 6; Heb. 3:1, 6; 1 Pet. 2:5, 9, 10; 1 Pet. 4:1, 2; 2 Pet. 1:1; 1 John 2:3, 5, 6, 12–15; 1 John 3:2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 14, 18, 19; 1 John 4:7; 1 John 5:1; 2 John 9; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 14:4, 5; Rev. 17:14

Swanson, J., & Nave, O. (1994). New Nave's. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

The wicked described:

Gen. 13:13; Gen. 18:20; Lev. 18:25; Deut. 9:13, 24; Deut. 32:10, 32, 33; 1 Sam. 24:13; 1 Kin. 21:20; 2 Chr. 28:10, 22; Ezra 9:11; Job 14:4; Job 15:16, 20–35; Job 20:12, 13; Job 22:5; Job 24:2–24; Psa. 5:9; Psa. 7:14–16; Psa. 10:4–11; Psa. 36:1–4; Psa. 37:12; Psa. 49:20; Psa. 50:17–20; Psa. 52:1–4; Psa. 53:1–5; Psa. 58:3–5; Psa. 59:6, 7; Psa. 64:3–6; Psa. 73:4–12; Psa. 94:3–8; Psa. 119:155; Prov. 1:29, 30; Prov. 2:12–19; Prov. 4:16; Prov. 6:12–15; Prov. 10:23; Prov. 13:19; Prov. 14:9; Prov. 15:9, 10; Prov. 27:22; Prov. 28:4; Eccl. 3:18; Eccl. 8:11; Isa. 1:4–6; Isa. 3:9; Isa. 5:11, 12, 18–25; Isa. 26:10, 11; Isa. 30:1, 9–11; Isa. 32:6, 7; Isa. 57:20, 21; Isa. 59:2–8; Isa. 63:19; Jer. 2:22–25; Jer. 3:5; Jer. 4:22; Jer. 5:4, 5, 26–28; Jer. 6:7, 15 Jer. 8:12. Jer. 8:6; Jer. 9:3–6; Jer. 11:8, 15; Jer. 13:10; Jer. 14:10; Jer. 17:1; Jer. 30:12–15; Ezek. 3:7; Ezek. 11:12; Ezek. 16:47; Ezek. 20:16; Hos. 4:8; Hos. 7:3, 9; Hos. 9:10; Hos. 13:12; Amos 5:10; Mic. 3:1, 2; Mic. 7:2–4; Zeph. 3:5, 7; Hag. 2:14; Matt. 4:16; Matt. 6:23; Matt. 18:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 1:79; Luke 19:10; John 3:18–20; John 5:42; John 8:34, 44; Acts 8:21, 23; Acts 13:10; Rom. 1:20–32; Rom. 2:8; Rom. 3:10–18; Rom. 8:5, 7, 8; Rom. 9:8; Eph. 2:1–3, 12; Eph. 4:17–19; Eph. 5:11, 12; Phil. 2:15; Col. 1:21; 1 Thess. 5:7; 2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:9, 10; 2 Tim. 3:2–13; Tit. 1:15, 16; Tit. 3:3; 2 Pet. 2:10, 12–19; 1 John 3:8, 10, 14, 15; Jude 12, 13; Rev. 3:17, 18

Swanson, J., & Nave, O. (1994). New Nave's. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

"Unfortunately, you've moved from one logical error to another: now you've committed four Straw Man Fallacies."

[Quote:
"The question of whether the Pope Pius XII
did all in his power to fight the effects of the
Holocaust is still an open wound. This has
caused Pope Benedict to slow down the process
of Pope Pius' beatification pending further
research. Several Jewish groups have
protested the intention to beatify the pope,
who they say did not stand up to Adolf
as Jews were being deported to and killed in
concentration camps. Pope Pius has been
particularly criticized in Italy for not having
come to the Jewish ghetto in Rome when
more than 1,000 Jews were rounded up and
deported by troops in October 1943."
(CNS, 6/17/09)]

Straw man? Don't Roman Catholics follow that "straw man"? (Your words not mine).

Pope Accuses Nazis

of Playing God

"Pope Benedict XVI said, "The Nazi concentration

camps, like all death camps, can be

considered extreme symbols of evil, of the

hell that opens on earth when man forgets

God and takes his place, usurping the right

to decide what is good and what is bad, to

give life and death." The pope said that while

the Nazi death machine was an extreme example

of what happens when people think

they can play God, "this sad phenomenon is

not limited to the concentration camps." He

said, "There are philosophies and ideologies,

but also ways of thinking and acting,

that exalt freedom as the only principle for

human beings, making them think they are

gods and the final judges of what is good

and bad." (CNS, 8/10/09)

Roman Catholics teach that the Pope is infallible and Jesus' representation on earth--kind of an oopsie for an infallible man.

Response to comment [from an atheist]: "Yeah you don't seem that much less loony."

I try (1 Pe 2:11).

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "[T]his about your understanding of [the gospel]. You mock others who don't believe exactly as you do."

Truth is truth independent from me. Who cares what I think. What God thinks is all-important. And what does God think? What does God say about idolaters and an apostate church?

Idolatry:

1.*****Forbidden. Ex 20:2,3; De 5:7.
2.*****Consists in
a.*****Bowing down to images. Ex 20:5; De 5:9.
b.*****Worshipping images. Isa 44:17; Da 3:5,10,15.
c.*****Sacrificing to images. Ps 106:38; Ac 7:41.
d.*****Worshipping other gods. De 30:17; Ps 81:9.
e.*****Swearing by other gods. Ex 23:13; Jos 23:7.
f.*****Walking after other gods. De 8:19.
g.*****Speaking in the name of other gods. De 18:20.
h.*****Looking to other gods. Ho 3:1.
i.*****Serving other gods. De 7:4; Jer 5:19.
j.*****Fearing other gods. 2Ki 17:35.
k.*****Sacrificing to other gods. Ex 22:20.
l.*****Worshipping the true God by an image, &c. Ex 32:4-6; Ps 106:19,20.
m.*****Worshipping angels. Col 2:18.
n.*****Worshipping the host of heaven. De 4:19; 17:3.
o.*****Worshipping demons. Mt 4:9-10; Re 9:20.
p.*****Worshipping dead men. Ps 106:28.
q.*****Setting up idols in the heart. Eze 14:3,4.
r.*****Covetousness. Eph 5:5; Col 3:5.
s.*****Sensuality. Php 3:19.
3.*****Is changing the glory of God into an image. Ro 1:23; Ac 17:29.
4.*****Is changing the truth of God into a lie. Ro 1:25; Isa 44:20.
5.*****Is a work of the flesh. Ga 5:19,20.
6.*****Incompatible with the service of God. Ge 35:2,3; Jos 24:23; 1Sa 7:3; 1Ki 18:21; 2Co 6:15,16.
7.*****Described as
a.*****An abomination to God. De 7:25.
b.*****Hateful to God. De 16:22; Jer 44:4.
c.*****Vain and foolish. Ps 115:4-8; Isa 44:19; Jer 10:3.
d.*****Bloody. Eze 23:39.
e.*****Abominable. 1Pe 4:3.
f.*****Unprofitable. Jdj 10:14; Isa 46:7.
g.*****Irrational. Ac 17:29; Ro 1:21-23.
h.*****Defiling. Eze 20:7; 36:18.
8.*****They who practise
a.*****Forget God. De 8:19; Jer 18:15.
b.*****Go astray from God. Eze 44:10.
c.*****Pollute the name of God. Eze 20:39.
d.*****Defile the sanctuary of God. Eze 5:11.
e.*****Are estranged from God. Eze 14:5.
f.*****Forsake God. 2Ki 22:17; Jer 16:11.
g.*****Hate God. 2Ch 19:2,3.
h.*****Provoke God. De 31:20; Isa 65:3; Jer 25:6.
i.*****Are vain in their imaginations. Ro 1:21.
j.*****Are ignorant and foolish. Ro 1:21,22.
k.*****Inflame themselves. Isa 57:5.
l.*****Hold fast their deceit. Jer 8:5.
m.*****Carried away by it. 1Co 12:2.
n.*****Go after it in heart. Eze 20:16.
o.*****Are mad upon it. Jer 50:38.
p.*****Boast of it. Ps 97:7.
q.*****Have fellowship with devils. Ho 4:12.
r.*****Ask counsel of their idols. Ho 4:12.
s.*****Look to idols for deliverance. Isa 44:17; 45:20.
t.*****Swear by their idols. Am 8:14.
9.*****Objects of, numerous. 1Co 8:5.
10.*****Objects of described as
a.*****Strange gods. Ge 35:2,4; Jos 24:20.
b.*****Other gods. Jdj 2:12,17; 1Ki 14:9.
c.*****New gods. De 32:17; Jdj 5:8.
d.*****Gods that cannot save. Isa 45:20.
e.*****Gods that have not made the heavens. Jer 10:11.
f.*****No gods. Jer 5:7; Ga 4:8.
g.*****Molten gods. Ex 34:17; Le 19:4.
h.*****Molten images. De 27:15; Hab 2:18.
i.*****Graven images. Isa 45:20; Ho 11:2.
j.*****Senseless idols. De 4:28; Ps 115:5,7.
k.*****Dumb idols. Hab 2:18.
l.*****Dumb Stones. Hab 2:19.
m.*****Stocks. Jer 3:9; Ho 4:12.
n.*****Abominations. Isa 44:19; Jer 32:34.
o.*****Images of abomination. Eze 7:20.
p.*****Idols of abomination. Eze 16:36.
q.*****Stumbling blocks. Eze 14:3.
r.*****Teachers of lies. Hab 2:18.
s.*****Wind and confusion. Isa 41:29.
t.*****Nothing. Isa 41:24; 1Co 8:4.
u.*****Helpless. Jer 10:5.
v.*****Vanity. Jer 18:15.
w.*****Vanities of the Gentiles. Jer 14:22.
11.*****Making idols for the purpose of, described and ridiculed. Isa 44:10-20.
12.*****Obstinate sinners judicially given up to. De 4:28; 28:64; Ho 4:17.
13.*****Warnings against. De 4:15-19.
14.*****Exhortations to turn from. Eze 14:6; 20:7; Ac 14:15.
15.*****Renounced on conversion. 1Th 1:9.
16.*****Led to abominable sins. Ro 1:26-32; Ac 15:20.
17.*****Saints should
a.*****Keep from. Jos 23:7; 1Jo 5:21.
b.*****Flee from. 1Co 10:14.
c.*****Not have anything connected with in their houses. De 7:26.
d.*****Not partake of any thing connected with. 1Co 10:19,20.
e.*****Not have religious intercourse with those who practise. Jos 23:7; 1Co 5:11.
f.*****Not covenant with those who practise. Ex 34:12,15; De 7:2.
g.*****Not intermarry with those who practise. Ex 34:16; De 7:3.
h.*****Testify against. Ac 14:15; 19:26.
i.*****Refuse to engage in, though threatened with death. Da 3:18.
18.*****Saints preserved by God from. 1Ki 19:18; Ro 11:4.
19.*****Saints refuse to receive the worship of. Ac 10:25,26; 14:11-15.
20.*****Angels refuse to receive the worship of. Re 22:8,9.
21.*****Destruction of, promised. Eze 36:25; Zec 13:2.
22.*****Everything connected with, should be destroyed. Ex 34:13; De 7:5; 2Sa 5:21; 2Ki 23:14.
23.*****Woe denounced against. Hab 2:19.
24.*****Curse denounced against. De 27:15.
25.*****Punishment of
a.*****Judicial death. De 17:2-5.
b.*****Dreadful judgments which end in death. Jer 8:2; 16:1-11.
c.*****Banishment. Jer 8:3; Ho 8:5-8; Am 5:26,27.
d.*****Exclusion from heaven. 1Co 6:9,10; Eph 5:5; Re 22:15.
e.*****Eternal torments. Re 14:9-11; 21:8.
...
28.*****All forms of, forbidden by the law of Moses. Ex 20:4,5.
29.*****All heathen nations given up to. Ps 96:5; Ro 1:23,25; 1Co 12:2.
30.*****Led the heathen to think that their gods visited the earth in bodily shapes. Ac 14:11.
31.*****Led the heathen to consider their gods to have but a local influence. 1Ki 20:23; 2Ki 17:26.
32.*****Objects of
a.*****The heavenly bodies. 2Ki 23:5; Ac 7:42.
b.*****Angels. Col 2:18.
c.*****Departed spirits. 1Sa 28:14,15.
d.*****Earthly creatures. Ro 1:23.
e.*****Images. De 29:17; Ps 115:4; Isa 44:17.
33.*****Temples built for. Ho 8:14.
34.*****Altars raised for. 1Ki 18:26; Ho 8:11.
35.*****Accompanied by feasts. 2Ki 10:20; 1Co 10:27,28.
36.*****Objects of, worshipped
a.*****With sacrifices. Nu 22:40; 2Ki 10:24.
b.*****With libations. Isa 57:6; Jer 19:13.
c.*****With incense. Jer 48:35.
d.*****With prayer. 1Ki 18:26; Isa 44:17.
e.*****With singing and dancing. Ex 32:18,19; 1Ki 18:26; 1Co 10:7.
f.*****By bowing to them. 1Ki 19:18; 2Ki 5:18.
g.*****By kissing them. 1Ki 19:18; Ho 13:2.
h.*****By kissing the hand to them. Job 31:26,27.
i.*****By cutting the flesh. 1Ki 18:28.
j.*****By burning children. De 12:31; 2Ch 33:6; Jer 19:4,5; Eze 16:21.
k.*****In temples. 2Ki 5:18.
l.*****On high places. Nu 22:41; Jer 2:20.
m.*****In groves. Ex 34:13.
n.*****Under trees. Isa 57:5; Jer 2:20.
o.*****In private houses. Jdj 17:4,5.
p.*****On the tops of houses. 2Ki 23:12; Zep 1:5.
q.*****In secret places. Isa 57:8.
37.*****Rites of, obscene and impure. Ex 32:25; Nu 25:1-3; 2Ki 17:9; Isa 57:6,8,9; 1Pe 4:3.
38.*****Divination connected with. 2Ch 33:6.
39.*****Victims sacrificed in, often adorned with garlands. Ac 14:13.
...
41.*****Objects of, carried in procession. Isa 46:7; Am 5:26; Ac 7:43.
42.*****Early notice of, amongst God’s professing people. Ge 31:19,30; 35:1-4; Jos 24:2.
43.*****The Jews
a.*****Practised, in Egypt. Jos 24:14; Eze 23:3,19.
b.*****Brought, out of Egypt with them. Eze 23:8; Ac 7:39-41.
c.*****Forbidden to practise. Ex 20:1-5; 23:24.
d.*****Often mixed up, with God’s worship. Ex 32:1-5; 1Ki 12:27,28.
e.*****Followed the Canaanites in. Jdj 2:11-13; 1Ch 5:25.
f.*****Followed the Moabites in. Nu 25:1-3.
g.*****Followed the Assyrians in. Eze 16:28-30; 23:5-7.
h.*****Followed the Syrians in. Jdj 10:6.
44.*****Adopted by Solomon. 1Ki 11:5-8.
45.*****Adopted by the wicked kings. 1Ki 21:26; 2Ki 21:21; 2Ch 28:2-4; 33:3,7.
46.*****Example of the kings encouraged Israel in. 1Ki 12:30; 2Ki 21:11; 2Ch 33:9.
47.*****Great prevalence of, in Israel. Isa 2:8; Jer 2:28; Eze 8:10.
48.*****A virtual forsaking of God. Jer 2:9-13.
49.*****The good kings of Judah endeavoured to destroy. 2Ch 15:16; 34:7.
50.*****Captivity of Israel on account of. 2Ki 17:6-18.
51.*****Captivity of Judah on account of. 2Ki 17:19-23.

Apostates:

1.*****Described. De 13:13; Heb 3:12.
2.*****Persecution tends to make. Mt 24:9,10; Lu 8:13.
3.*****A worldly spirit tends to make. 2Ti 4:10.
4.*****Never belonged to Christ. 1Jo 2:19.
5.*****Saints do not become. Ps 44:18,19; Heb 6:9; 10:39.
6.*****It is impossible to restore. Heb 6:4-6.
7.*****Guilt and punishment of. Zep 1:4-6; Heb 10:25-31,39; 2Pe 2:17,20-22.
8.*****Cautions against becoming. Heb 3:12; 2Pe 3:17.
9.*****Shall abound in the latter days. Mt 24:12; 2Th 2:3; 1Ti 4:1-...Torrey, R. (1995, c1897). The new topical text book : A scriptural text book for the use of ministers, teachers, and all Christian workers. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos research Systems, Inc.

Sound like anyone you know?

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "What about the One Foundation, Christ [1 Cor 3:11]."

One foundation is Christ.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ [1 Cor. 3:11].

"Are you building on Him? That is the important question for the believer. When you came to Christ, you came with no works. You came bringing nothing to receive everything! You were put on that Rock which is Christ. Now you can build on that. This is where good works come in."

For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim [Hos. 3:4].

“...The reason the date is not given here in Hosea is that in Scripture the church is nameless and dateless. We who belong to the true church are a heavenly people, having no name. I suppose some of you folk thought the name of the church was Baptist or Presbyterian or Methodist or Christian or even Independent. I have news for you: the church has no name; Scripture has never given it a name. The Greek word ecclesia simply means “a called-out body.” He is calling out a body today which is going to be His bride. I could make a suggestion today for a name for the church. In the parable of the pearl of great price (see Matt. 13:45–46), the pearl represents the church which the merchantman, Jesus, came and bought. He paid a big price for the church, you know. The word for pearl is margarites. If the church is to have any name at all, I think it should be Margaret. Have you ever heard of the Margaret Church? One time I told a fellow that I went to the Margaret Church; he thought I was kidding, but I really was serious about it.

The church is nameless, and it is also dateless. If you had met Simon Peter an hour before the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost and you had asked him, “Do you know what’s going to happen here in a little while?” he would have said, “No. What’s going to happen?” He didn’t know, because the birth of the church had been announced, but no date had been given. And we are not given the date of the Rapture, the time when the church will be removed from this earth. For that reason we are told “the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king”—no specific time period is given to us.

Israel is going to abide many days “without a king.” There are those in that land today who claim that they can tell you the tribe to which they belong. I have serious doubts about that, but they make that claim. However, there is no Israelite living today who can say, “I am in the line of David, and I have a right to the throne of David.” The only One who can claim that is this moment sitting at God’s right hand. He is the Lord Jesus, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Israel has rejected their King.

“Without a prince”—they have no one to succeed to the throne. If the Lord Jesus Christ is not their Messiah, they have none and have no prospect for one.

“Without a sacrifice.” Luke 21:24 tells us that “… Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Therefore, many people argue that we must be to the end of the “times of the Gentiles” because Israel now has Jerusalem. Do they really have Jerusalem today? All of the holy places in old Jerusalem are in the hands of either the Moslems, the Russian Catholics, the Greek Catholics, the Armenian Church, or the Roman Catholics. And all of them have built cathedrals or churches over these spots. Israel does not possess these sacred spots, and they dare not touch them. I said once to a Jewish guide with whom I had become acquainted, “You have Jerusalem now. Why don’t you go and tear down that Mosque of Omar and put up your own temple?” He said, “What do you want us to do—start World War III?” That would surely start it, my friend—you can be sure of that. Israel does not possess that temple area, and they do not have a sacrifice today. The only holy place they have is the Wailing Wall—they are still at the Wailing Wall. They have no sacrifice except the one which you and I have—Jesus. He died nineteen hundred years ago outside the city, was raised from the dead, and is today at God’s right hand.

“Without an image.” God did not give Israel any images. He had said to them, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing …” (Exod. 20:4). But He had given them many things; for instance, “an ephod” and “a teraphim.” The ephod was the sacred garment worn by the high priest. Teraphim were small objects which they carried around like good luck charms and which they began to worship. God says here that they are going to get away from idolatry, that they will not have any images. That is one thing that you can say about Israel today—they are not in idolatry. Although they have not turned to God, they certainly have turned away from idolatry."

[Re 21:14]

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb [Rev. 21:14].

"This city has twelve foundations, and the names of the twelve apostles are upon them. The church today is “… built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20). When Christ returned to heaven, He committed the keys into the keeping of the apostles. On the human level, the church was in the hands of these twelve men. The Book of Acts gives the order: “The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen” (Acts 1:1–2). I do not believe that Matthias is the apostle who succeeded Judas. I personally believe it was Paul. Simon Peter held that meeting to elect Matthias before the Holy Spirit came, and I do not think he was in the will of God when he did so. You never hear Matthias mentioned again, but you surely hear of Paul the apostle, and I think he is the one whom God chose to succeed Judas, making Paul the twelfth apostle.

To these twelve apostles were committed all the writings of the church. These men preached the first sermons, they organized the first churches, and they were among the first martyrs. It is not honoring to Scripture to attempt to minimize the importance of the twelve apostles. In a real sense they were the foundation..."

McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:1069-1070). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [I thought it was clarifying.] "Your mistake."

You don't like clarity? That makes sense (Lu 16:15; 18:9). I love clarity. :backflip:

"Apparently, you have no idea what a Straw Man Fallacy is."

It's sort of logic 101, isn't it? You did not answer the question of making an idol of this "straw man" (that you were working on in this case...but it was sort of a flop, don't you think? :hammer:). By the way, if you passed a literal straw man by, would you bow down and worship him too? And who would have more wisdom? But I digress.

"[Y]ou'll need to explain exactly how the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility is in nay way inconsistent with Christian truth."

See:

No Papal Authority

Is papal infallibility Biblical? Is the Pope infallible when he makes proclamations ex cathedra?

Should Catholic tradition have equal or greater authority than the Bible? Are there any aspects of Catholic tradition that do not agree with the B...

Was Saint Peter the first Pope? Was Peter the supreme authority over the other Apostles? Was Peter the founder of the Roman Catholic Church?

What does the Bible say about the pope / papacy? Does the Bible teach that there is to be one bishop in authority over the entire church?

Is apostolic succession Biblical? Was the authority of the Apostles passed on to their successors?

Also see:

What is sola scriptura? Do the Scriptures even teach sola scriptura? What is the standard for Christian faith and practice?

What were the Inquisitions? Why did the Catholic Church use the inquisitions to persecute those who disagreed with its doctrines and/or practices?

Catholic Questions - questions from Catholics and about Catholicism. An honest look at Catholic theology from a Biblical perspective.

Is the Pope the Vicar of Christ? Is the Roman Catholic Pope the replacement for Jesus on the earth?

Hypothetically, if the Pope but a big "O" for Obama on the Eucharist, would you continue to bow down to it?

Catholics and Protestants

Growing Closer

"A candidate for the World Council of

Churches' top post spoke optimistically

about the potential for churches to overcome

their differences. During an interview,

Dr. Olav Fykse Tveit of the Church of Norway

noted how Catholics and Protestants

have grown closer than ever before, and said

he believes a shared communion will one day

be possible. He said he hopes Protestants

and Catholics can work out their differences

and worship together. Describing itself as

the "broadest and most inclusive" organization

of the modern ecumenical movement,

the WCC is an ecumenical fellowship of 349

Protestant, Orthodox, Anglican and other

churches representing more than 560 million

Christians in over 110 countries." (The Christian

Post, 8/18/09)

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Who cares what serpentdove thinks that God thinks?"

That old chestnut. :yawn:

Paraphrased notes: How to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson:

Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean. We take literally the stuff that was intended to be taken literally and we take figuratively the stuff that was intended to be taken figuratively. We take the Bible literally unless it gives us reason not to, for example, if it would not make sense. Give God the courtesy that you would give anyone in communication.

A chair, for example, can be an object that you sit on or it may be used as a verb--to chair a group. The meaning comes from the person speaking. A dictionary can give us a semantic range of ideas. It is easy to know what something means by its context.

The wicked of course pervert the word of God. A verse does not mean what you want it to mean, it means what it means. If I tell you to "Put something in the trunk." You know that I do not mean "Put something in the trunk (of an elephant)."

We gain the meaning of biblical passages by understanding what the word meant at that time. "Quantum" in the past referred to an amount--a quantum leap, for example. Today, it means more--the smallest quantity of radiant energy, for example.

Instead of arguing "Who cares what [someone] thinks?" It might be a more appropriate question to ask: Which hermeneutic is correct? Which teaching is credible?

See:

Hierarchy of Hermeneutics

How to Interpret the Bible

"[I]t sounds like a Protestant anti-Catholic misrepresentation (Straw Man Fallacy) of actual Catholic belief and teaching."

Protestants are not anti-Catholic. They are anti-false teaching.

In fact, Mike Gendron was Catholic of over 34 years. It would only discredit him to misrepresent the teachings of Roman Catholicism. He reaches out to Roman Catholics everyday in his ministry. Catholics never seem to get beyond: "You are a Catholic-basher." If you are willing to take an honest look at the truth of scripture and consider the claims of Christ, you can be born into his true church.

See:

Pro-Gospel.org

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Catholics do not in any way "worship" the pope, statues, icons, or anything other than God."

I wonder why all of those people are bowing (excuse me--bending over in a prayer posture) in Catholic Churches.

Idolatry:

1. Forbidden. Ex 20:2,3; De 5:7.

2. Consists in

a. Bowing down to images. Ex 20:5; De 5:9.

b. Worshipping images. Isa 44:17; Da 3:5,10,15.

c. Sacrificing to images. Ps 106:38; Ac 7:41.

d. Worshipping other gods. De 30:17; Ps 81:9.

e. Swearing by other gods. Ex 23:13; Jos 23:7.

f. Walking after other gods. De 8:19.

g. Speaking in the name of other gods. De 18:20.

h. Looking to other gods. Ho 3:1.

i. Serving other gods. De 7:4; Jer 5:19.

j. Fearing other gods. 2Ki 17:35.

k. Sacrificing to other gods. Ex 22:20.

l. Worshipping the true God by an image, &c. Ex 32:4-6; Ps 106:19,20.

m. Worshipping angels. Col 2:18.

n. Worshipping the host of heaven. De 4:19; 17:3.

o. Worshipping demons. Mt 4:9-10; Re 9:20.

p. Worshipping dead men. Ps 106:28.

q. Setting up idols in the heart. Eze 14:3,4.

r. Covetousness. Eph 5:5; Col 3:5.

s. Sensuality. Php 3:19.

Torrey, R. (1995, c1897). The new topical text book : A scriptural text book for the use of ministers, teachers, and all Christian workers. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos research Systems, Inc.

"From these articles...[there is]...nothing contrary to the...Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility."

If you pull the wool over your eyes there is no sunshine in the daytime either. (Eze 13:19).

"[T]he early Christian Church held to the infallibility of the Bishop of Rome, and the Church has continued to do so right down to our own day."

You and I pour different meanings into "the church" (Eph 1:23; Col 1:24). Christians trust Christ (Song 7:10) not men.

[That old chestnut/Straw man] "Dismissing it, unfortunately, will not make it go away."

Are you still speaking about the meaning of a straw man fallacy? Sorry, I had to move on because you're...well, you love fallacies so much--you are committing the fallacy of repetition. Repeating yourself does not make your claim more true.

Moving on (or I am at least but you are free to stay there if you'd like). :stuck:

A few housekeeping items: If I think I've addressed an issue sufficiently. I do not respond to it again generally, unless it seems to be a case of cataracts (Ps 13:3). Disagree. Fine. Let the reader decide.

"[T]ens-of-thousands of competing Protestant denominations and sects..."

Do you all get the same talking points?

The church is a "called out body". Addressed earlier.

"...all differing with one another over even central doctrines of the faith..."

A departure from historical, biblical Christianity puts said group into the kingdom of the cults not the kingdom of Christ.

"How, precisely, do I "know" this? What if you did intend me to put something in an elephant's trunk, or in a steamer trunk, or in the trunk of a tree?"

Scripture works effectively in those that believe (1Th 2:13). Christ enables us to understand (Lu 24:45). The Holy Spirit enables us to understand (Jn 16:13; 1Co 2:10-14.
25).

"[Protestants use their]...own supposed authority to decide and to dictate "what the Bible means.""

No prophecy is of any private interpretation (2Pe 1:20).

"Anti-Catholic," that is, opposed to the institution and teachings of the Catholic Church. Are you, then, not opposed to these things?"

I am opposed to any cult or 'ism that perverts the teaching of the Bible.

[Mike Gendron] "...[P]ainting Catholicism as he does is definitely more favorable to his readers, who are opposed to the Catholic faith to begin with."

His readers are Protestant and Catholic. Some love him. Some hate him (Ga 4:16).

[If you are willing to take an honest look at the truth of scripture and consider the claims of Christ, you can be born into his true church.] "Of course, I could very well say the same to you, yes?"

We can go from death to life (Jn 3:7). We cannot go from live to death once in Christ (Jn 10:28). The only life that God gives is eternal. When we repent of our sins and receive Christ as our savior, truth resides in us (Jn 14:6). So, to answer your question--no. Can a butterfly become a caterpillar again?

Salvation, according to the NT, is from beginning to end a matter of union with Christ and sharing in all the benefits resulting from his once-for-all redemptive work. Accordingly, because Christ died and was raised, anyone in Christ is already a participant in the new ceation order (2 Cor 5:15). The reference is not only personal but cosmic, as seen from the context with its correlative emphasis on the reconciliation and its scope (vv 17–19).

In the only other NT occurrence of the expression “new creation” (Gal 6:15), the perspective is cosmic as well as individual. The new creation, in which neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matters, stands in opposition to the world, to which the believer has been crucified with Christ (Gal 6:14; cf. Col 2:20). “When anyone is united to Christ, there is a new world; the old order is gone, and a new order has already begun” (2 Cor 5:17, neb).

Resurrection is not only a future hope for believers but a present reality; they have already been raised with Christ (Eph 2:5–6; cf. Col 2:12–13; 3:1). Consequently, believers are “created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph 2:10). Further, the church is the new covenant reality of “the new man,” made up of Israel and the nations (v 15). As such, its members are already being renewed inwardly (2 Cor 4:16) by the Lord-Spirit according to the glorified image of the last Adam (2 Cor 3:18; 4:4–6; cf. Rom 8:29; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10). And they will bear this same image bodily at his return (1 Cor 15:49). The deepest motive for holy living is not gratitude for the forgiveness of sin but the determination of the believer’s existence as a new creature. The ethics of the NT are new creation ethics (Rom 12:2; Col 2:20).

The new creation is not only a present reality but a future hope. For the new creation, too, the church lives “by faith, not by sight” (2 Cor 5:7). Reminiscent of Isaiah’s expectation, believers are looking to Christ’s return for “new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells” and where sin and its effects are nothing more than memories (2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1–4).

This hope raises the question of the relationship between this final, eternal order and the original creation. The picture of destruction by burning (2 Pt 3:10–12) and some of the images in Revelation 21 and 22 (e.g., no sun, moon, night; cf. 6:12–14) seem to suggest an absolute disjunction. Other passages, however, interpret this as imagery. With all the radical differences before and after the resurrection, the natural and spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15:44) are not distinct from each other as bodies. This body, sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness, will be raised up incorruptible, glorious, and powerful. And what holds true for the believer’s body also holds for creation. The anxious longing and groaning of the entire (nonpersonal) creation is not for annihilation but that it may be set free from bondage to futility and decay and may share in the glorious freedom of the children of God, which will be revealed in the redemption (resurrection) of the body (Rom 8:19–23). The new creation is not merely a return to conditions in the beginning but a renewed creation, the consummation of God’s purposes set from before the beginning and realized, despite man’s sin and its destructive effects, by the redemption in Christ, the last Adam.

neb New English Bible

Elwell, W. A., & Comfort, P. W. (2001). Tyndale Bible dictionary. Tyndale reference library (949). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

Response to comment [from a "Christian"]: "When you finally discover that you cannot divorce your own bias from your understanding of God you will begin to understand Him better."

You sound like a non-trinitarian. Is this so?

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Catholics do not "bow down TO images..."

Yes, Catholics say this. Why don't you just stop bowing down to images? Ex 20:5; De 5:9.

"Papal infallibility is a doctrine which is entirely consistent with Christian teaching..."

We disagree on the meaning of "Christian". A born-again Christian is the only Christian there is (Jn 3:7).

[Lk 10:16]

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me [Luke 10:10–16].

"Our Lord solemnly speaks of the seriousness of rejecting His messengers—to reject them was to reject Him."

McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (4:291). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Priest Justifies Shoplifting

"Father Tim Jones, parish priest of St.

Lawrence and St. Hilda in York, England, said

in a sermon that stealing from large national

chains was sometimes the best option many

vulnerable people had. He said: "I have never

said it is OK to steal, but bigger companies

suffer less harm from shoplifting than smaller

businesses." And he accused the larger businesses

of contributing a pitiful amount to

charity. Talking about the situations of certain

vulnerable people, Fr. Jones told his congregation

on Sunday: "My advice, as a Christian

priest, is to shoplift. I do not offer such

advice because I think that stealing is a good

thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it

is neither. I would ask them not to take any

more than they need." He added: "Let my

words not be misrepresented as a simplistic

call for people to shoplift." The observation

that shoplifting is the best option that some

people are left with is a grim indictment of

who we are." (irishexaminer.com, 12/22/09)

Response to comment [from other]: "[Y]ou've got the room for criticizing other people's avatars and calling them "slutty ma'am" with that stupid dopey smiley face you have as one is anyone's guess, although it does fit you in certain ways I suppose."

...Answering in kind. I hope she's interested in elevating the conversation now. But, you never know.

"...with that stupid dopey smiley face you have as one is anyone's guess, although it does fit you in certain ways I suppose."

Hey, I can't help that I have bucked teeth.

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "Perhaps...just perhaps, John Paul II was bringing suffering upon himself so that he might better understand the sufferings of Christ for His beloved..."

I doubt it.

"Have you ever fasted?"

Yes.

"Do you consider fasting to be a sinful activity?"

No. Fasting is scriptural (Isa 58:6,7).

I do consider it sinful for the Pope to lead people to hell. Roman Catholics teach: a different Jesus, a different gospel, a different way of salvation than historical, biblical Christianity.

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "[W]hy don't you spend more time teaching your version? [of Jesus, gospel, salvation]."

Anything but getting the word of God out, right? There are not "versions" of Jesus, the gospel, and the way of salvation (Jn 14:6).

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Given that Catholics do not bow "TO" images, your comment simply doesn't apply in their case."

You attend a Roman Catholic Church and have never seen this (e.g. stations of the cross)?

Moving on...

I wonder why there are so many prayer books to saints also? Why do you think that is? Why are children encouraged by the Roman Catholic Church to memorize prayers to "the saints" (biblically, anyone found in Christ is a saint [Acts 9:32, 41]). Ho 3:1 Ex 32:4-6; Ps 106:19,20.

[1 Ti 3:1, Mt 16:18-19]

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work [1 Tim. 3:1].

“This is a true saying” could be translated, “This is a faithful saying.” In other words, this is a saying that stands the test of time; it is one you can depend upon.

“If a man desire the office of a bishop” means if a man seeks the office of a bishop. This has in it the thought that there will be the active seeking of the office. I believe that a man who has the qualifications ought to seek the office. He ought to want a place where he can use the gift that the Spirit of God has given him. If the Spirit of God has not given him the gift and is not leading him, then it would be a tragedy indeed if a man sought the office of bishop. This also suggests that there was not just one bishop in the church, but there were several.

“The office of a bishop.” Bishop is a word that has been misinterpreted and interpreted differently by different groups. Those who practice the episcopal form of church government put great emphasis upon this word and its interpretation.

Bishop actually means “an overseer, a superintendent.” In the early church the pastor was called by several different titles: (1) he was called a presbyter, or elder; (2) he was called a pastor, or shepherd; (3) he was called a bishop, or an overseer; and (4) he was called a minister. The pastor was never called “reverend,” and I don’t think any preacher should be so called. Reverend means “terrible, that which incites terror.” It is a name which applies only to God.

I take the position that the terms elder and bishop refer to the same person. Those who hold to the episcopal form of church government will, of course, disagree with me altogether. I believe that the use of “elder” (presbuteros in the Greek) refers to the person who holds the office, and it suggests that he must be a mature Christian. On the other hand, the use of “bishop” (episkopos in the Greek) refers to the office that is held. Therefore, these two words apply to the same individual or office.

A bishop in the early church never had authority over other bishops or elders. He did not have authority over churches. You do not find such a practice presented in the Word of God. Even Paul, who founded a number of churches, never spoke of himself as the bishop of a church, or as the one who was ruling a church in any way whatsoever. Therefore, the minister is one who is to serve the church, not rule over it.

“He desireth a good work”—he is seeking a place where he can serve in the church."

McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:441). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [Matt. 16:18].

"Let us look at this verse carefully. On what rock did Jesus build His church? There are those who say that it was built on Simon Peter. Well, obviously it was not, because there is a play upon words here. In the original Greek it is, “Thou art Petros [a little piece of rock], and upon this petra [bedrock] I will build my church.” There are others who hold that Christ is building His church upon the confession that Simon Peter made. I don’t agree with that at all.

Who is the Rock? The Rock is Christ. The church is built upon Christ. We have Simon Peter’s own explanation of this. In 1 Peter 2:4, referring to Christ, he writes, “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious.” And he remembers Isaiah 28:16, “… Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded” (1 Pet. 2:6). The church is built upon Christ; He is the foundation. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). Christ is the stone, and He says on this rock He will build His church. The church was still future when the Lord made this statement. And please don’t tell me there was a church in the Old Testament because the church did not come into existence until after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, and the sending of the Holy Spirit. There could not have been a church until all of these things had taken place. “I will build my church”—this was future.

The “gates of hell” refers to death. The word used for hell is the Greek word hades, the sheol of the Old Testament, which refers to the unseen world and means “death.” The gates of death shall not prevail against Christ’s church. One of these days the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout. That shout will be like the voice of an archangel and like a trumpet because the dead in Christ are to be raised. The gates of death shall not prevail against His church."

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [Matt. 16:19].

"What are the keys of the kingdom of heaven? Were they given only to Simon Peter? No, Jesus gives them to those who make the same confession made by Peter, those who know Christ as Savior. If you are a child of God, you have the keys as well as any person has the keys. The keys were the badge of authority of the office of the scribes who interpreted the Scriptures to the people (see Neh. 8:2–8). Every Christian today has the Scriptures and, therefore, the keys. If we withhold the Word, we “bind on earth”; if we give the Word, we “loose on earth.” No man or individual church has the keys—to the exclusion of all other believers. We have a responsibility today to give out the gospel because it is the only thing that can save people. This is a tremendous revelation. Who is sufficient for these things? You and I have a responsibility that is awesome indeed!"

McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (4:92-93). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "I have a question: Was there any other intent for starting this thread, other than a hateful desire to debase Catholics?

We get it, really.

You love sitting with the wicked. Ps. 26:5. Why do you keep boasting about your compromise?

Maybe you and Bybee can go out for tea and raisin cakes? You two are so lovely (Hos 3:1).

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "Funny point...These groups were Catholic, but because of their movement away from Catholic authority (among some other things) were convicted as heretics and many were burned.

Then, here comes a Pope who follows in their footsteps... the bloody footsteps of heretics and [P]rotestants..."

Would it be funny for worship of the Eucharist to be imposed by the sword of Islam?

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "Christianity has an even bigger sword."

"...What does this have to do with anything I said?"

Just looking ahead (Re 2:10).