A
few housekeeping items...TOL Slogan:
Response to comment [from a Buddhist]: "[We] see "love" in the flowers. What does the TOL slogan [Prov 27:5] mean?
Liberals like to define "love" as: do not say anything that might offend someone. Christians define love as telling people what they need to know to live (Acts 20:20).
"[A] new slogan would be a positive 'adaptive' move IMO. - the current one can actually turn people away."
Liberals can remain childish, but it is the Christian who must be authoritative. Lives are at stake.
"Unsolicited confrontation rarely achieves the desired result."
A Christian can wait for an opportunity to share Christ with others but we should not answer a fool according to his folly.
"'[W]hat people need to know to live.'-- may not be readily apparent to you."
It is always appropriate to share the gospel but a Christian must be discerning. Ultimately, every person needs to be told that he/she must repent to be saved. People hate to be reminded of God's holiness. Why else would others find the "good news" so bad?
"It is a license to be a jerk. You cannot conceal love. You cannot hide behind distorted passages from the Bible."
Do you despise this Bible verse? If so why? What passage of the Bible would you prefer to describe TOL?
I am unfamiliar with the biblical passages: "Try to be civil in the face of incivility. This is a test." and "Truth will make you happy." Truth will set you free (Jn 8:32) but as someone said, sometimes we have to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. Certainly, we should be civil, but truth and light can be uncomfortable to those who prefer darkness (Jn 3:19). Liberals are not known for their civility. In fact, quite the opposite. God's word will not return to him void (Isa 55:11). We would do well to get it out.
Do you believe that there is a higher authority than the word of God? Historical Christians fought for a return to the word of God as man's final authority. Where we see error, we are called to expose it (Gal 2:11, Mk 6:18). We are to open our mouths not shut them; and we are to judge rightly (Prov 31:9).
As gentle as a Christian attempts to share the gospel, people with wicked hearts reject it because they are in love with their sin. We address the sin. We do not conceal it or pretend that sin in lovely in anyway. Loving therefore is exposing a light in the barn as J. Vernon McGee used to say. The birds fly but the rats scurry.
"[A] NT passage might be more appropriate for a 'christian' owned site, than a Jewish one."
The God of the OT is the same God of the NT.
"[W]hy not get something from the New Testament like love your neighbor as yourself?"
Loving your neighbor is telling him the truth. These biblical passages are consistent. Rebuking one in error is love. Law is for the lawless and grace is for the repentant. Do you prefer to give grace to the unrepentant? That would send him to hell. What could be more unloving than that?
"[S]cripture is fraught with peril and subject to interpretations as vast as there are people. That should explain why there are a bajillion religions. Each one clinging to their individual interpretation of scripture."
If you are born again, the Holy Spirit is your teacher (Jn 14:26).
"Funny how the word liberal seems to creep up when a person is at a loss for an intelligent commentary on the subject at hand."
The terms "liberal" and "fundamental" are useful generalizations.
"Neither love carefully concealed nor open rebuke are good, however, the lesser of the two is open rebuke."
Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed--this
scripture makes clear that the former that is preferred. Liberals conceal
love and call their hatred "nice".
"[W]ho decided what the word of God is?"
Christians believe that the Bible is God's revealed word
as spoken by the profits. What do you believe?
"[S]ince TOL is becoming more open and tolerant to
some degree, but of course ever-biased....a new slogan would be a positive
'adaptive' move...[T]he current one can actually turn people away."
Response to comment [from a Hindu]: "Actually....the most name-calling
(rudeness/incivility) done around here is often by so called 'Christians', which
smears the name and integrity of the title, 'Christian'...-- some of us more
liberal spiritualists tend to me more civil, love-oriented, open-minded and
tolerant, respecting others views,...but addressing issues and behaviors we
disagree with...[J]ust remember, we of more liberal views can rebuke certain
views and attitudes just as well that do not resonate with reason or
intelligence, as far as we see it. Welcome to the playing field...[F]or without
diversity...this place would loose its zest, nuance, interest and passion...
...Truth can speak and mediate itself within that 'space' of sharing. - there,
God can do His/Her work..."
Liberals seem only to like name-calling when it is
directed one way--against the fundamentalist or traditional Christian. If
a liberal is called a liar or a false teacher, it is because the claim is true.
Ad hominem attacks on the other hand come more frequently from the left.
"Turning people away" occurs as truth and lies are separated. Jesus came to divide not unite: "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword (Mt 10:34)." There is a division of the world coming. The wheat and the tares will grow together but make no mistake we will be divided as we line up on one side or the other. A Christian is not here to coddle the godless to the gates of hell.
Liberals love to compliment themselves with words like "spiritual", "more civil", "love-oriented, "open minded", "tolerant", "more respecting of other's views", "addressing issues and behaviors we disagree with", "diverse", "more intelligent", . Saying a thing does not make it so (Ro 1:22). You are not spiritual without the word of God.
Politically, liberals tend to have little faith in themselves to live up to their God-given abilities. They have an innate awareness of their incompetence and wish for others to take care of them because of it. Spiritually, they realize that they are wicked. But instead of addressing the issue of sin, they seek to cover it. They ask the Christian to use New Testament words like "love" more rather than shining God given light (Mt 5:15).
Proverbs 27:5 is a reminder that the meaning of love is not to cover sin with pretty words but to uncover the problem, look at it and deal with it. After the liberal deals with the sin problem of the world, then liberals and conservatives alike may use prettier word like "forgiveness" and "peace". Until then there is no peace for the wicked (Isa 48:22).
Adrienne Rogers said what the world calls "diverse" God calls "perverse". Do not expect a compliment from a Christian for perversion. We don't see perversion or a departure from the word of God as "zesty", "nuanced", "interesting", or "passionate". We preach the word of God. The Bible is truth revealed to man. Where we hear a departure from what the Bible teaches, we seek to expose it and correct it (Jn 1:5, Mt 5:14).
Truth is revealed externally (Ps 19:1) and internally (Ro 2:15), but it does not "speak and mediate itself". Truth must be spoken (Ro 10:14). Speaking truth to liberal is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. They like to find a variety of truths--truth for you...truth for me....Christians maintain that there is one way, one truth, and one way to life eternal through the person of Jesus Christ (Jn 14:6).
Response to comment [from Buddhist]: "...[W]ho are we to decide that our
brother has gone astray....You thing God has told you something, and that your
brother is not in touch with God. How do you know? How do you know that it is
your brother and not you who has gone astray?...
...All human beings crave the love of another. And all of us deeply love
one another due to our connectedness as humans...
...This is at the root of every perversion, every evil, the unexpressed love
that has festered and turned from something beautiful and natural into something
ugly and unnatural [e.g. pedophile priests]...
...[T]he highest and best would be to express love openly. The worst to ignore
someone, to pretend you don't care...
Response to biblical passages:
Pr 17:14. On this verse J. Vernon McGee said: "He was a fool because he did nothing about eternity."
Pr 18:19. On this verse John MacArthur says the following: "There are no feuds as difficult to resolve as those with relatives; no barriers are so hard to bring down. Hence, great care should be taken to avoid such conflicts. bars of a castle. Cf. Judg. 16:3; 1 Kin. 4:13; Neh. 3:3; Is. 45:2."
Ps 145:8 On this verse J. Vernon McGee wrote: "We have a kind God. David had experienced the kindness of God, and it motivated him to show the same kindness of God to others."
Ps 40:10 On this verse John MacArthur said: "David’s spirit here was encountered previously in Ps. 22:22, 23." Note: "I have not concealed...lovingkindness".
Ps 66:20 On this passage The Bible Knowledge Commentary says: "God delivered him. However, it would not have happened that way if he had clung to sin (cf. Prov. 28:9; Isa. 59:2). But God did listen and answer his prayer. The point is clear: God’s people, when in need, should purify their hearts and pray to Him. Then He will answer and not withhold His loyal love, and other believers may praise and exalt Him."
These bible verses do not conflict with the rest of scripture with regard to quarrels and disputes. God's lovingkindness is not to be hidden by his people. They are to tell others the truth about who he is, why he came, and how to be with him for eternity. The Bible does not say that Christians should shut up so that the wicked may feel better.
A "brother" in one found in Christ. We are either children of wrath or children of God.
God gave us the need for love but we do not all love one another clearly. Read any newspaper for evidence of this fact. People are born wicked and in need of a Savior (Ps 51:5). We are to show respect for each other because we are made in God's image and likeness. But we are not to love hypocritically (Ro 12:10) and that means telling one another the truth. This is supported by TOL's biblical motto. The Bible does not contradict itself.
The root of every evil is sin. Nowhere in God's word are priests told to be celibate. The root of their depravity is in sin and a departure from the word of God.
Our standard is God's standard. His best is to share with one another his truth found in his word. This means telling another that his sin will lead to death. It means being willing to risk someone's feelings for the sake of his well-being. It means being willing to be hated for telling another the truth because it is for their own good. Hatred is remaining silent. Jesus told men the truth and he was hated for it. Those that share his message will be hated as well (Jn 13:16).
If it is love that you wish to experience, this can be known in the person of Jesus Christ. What the world offers is a cheap imitation.
"Yeah - well, when I
use the word "liberal" I mean the strain of progressive thought...in no
particular order of importance:
1. ended slavery
2. allowed women the vote
3. required children to be educated rather than forced to work 80 hours a week
in some factory.
4. ended segregation
5. allowed blacks to vote
6. ended lynching
7. ended prohibition of interracial marriage.
8. decreased work weeks to 40 hours, giving two days off per week
9. ended prohibition and thus the crime associated with it.
10. ended blue laws.
11. fought for a decent or living wage.
12. worked for tax equality
13. required/provided emergency health care for the poor
14. supported Constitutional law which bans torture in all cases.
15. supported freedom of speech, including unpopular speech.
16. fought for the right of people to join unions without being beaten up.
17. supported the right of gays to exists with being beaten or killed by those
who hate them, including the government.
18. fought against government supported monopolies.
19. fought for religious freedom, i.e., against those who wish to have
government recognize, in all ways possible, Christianity as the one true
religion.
20. fought to bring abortion out of the coat hanger/back alley age.
"Conservatives" generally have fought tooth and nail against anything new on
principle. Their general belief has always been "if it was good enough for my
father and my grandfather, then it is good enough for me."
Your list included achievements of historical Christians. I would not attribute advances to "progressive thought" but rather Christian fundamentalism.
"Then you would be
wrong. By definition any Christians who support progressive movements are
social liberals, regardless of how literalist they may be regarding supernatural
claims.
Institutional Christianity, both Protestant and Catholic, has held back progress
for centuries and suppressed any attempt to extend rights to individuals.
Individual Christians have indeed joined secular progressives in achieving more
rights and freedoms for all, that is true, e.g., the slavery issue. But
institutional Protestant Christianity supported slavery forever."
Christians who support a return to the word of God and who adhere to God's teaching in scripture have historically contributed positively to society. It is when a culture departs from God's word that it fails: first in individual, then in the home, then in the nation. Jews were urged to purge sin from their midst. Christians are urged by scripture to do the same. The saints of God who sought to restrain evil and uphold God's teaching were by no means social liberals. As William Wilberforce fought for the abolition of slavery, it is the historical, biblical Christian who fights today in a similar battle for protection for the unborn. Progressive thought is old sin with a new name.
Because slavery is mentioned in the Bible as a reality, it does not of necessity mean that God condones slavery. He did not. In fact, he set his people free and remains willing to set men free still. Men who have loved and honored God did not wish to own a black man. Men today who love and honor God do not wish to allow innocent children to be murdered in the womb.
Your list does includes some genuinely leftist "advances"--gay rights and legalization of abortion. With that departure from God's word as fought for by the left also comes more disease, death and destruction. We reap what we sew when we listen to liberals (Jn 10:10).
"[N]ot all liberals are wicked."
Liberals are deceived (Prov 28:26). Christians who obey God are declared righteous (Ro 2:13).
"I see you live in the U.S. Can you tell me what you like about your country?"
I believe more in American exceptionalism than our current president. Our nation was founded on biblical principals but we have departed from God's word. Therefore, we are now post-America and post-God. We are rebellious children snubbing our noses at our creator. We need a return to the word of God. Where we depart from his word, sin and corruption reign. That is the state of our nation presently.
"Actually we are
declared righteous because of Christ's obedience."
Agreed. We trust and obey. When we are found in Christ, we
are declared righteous (Phil 1:6).
"And if we are disobedient?"
Then we can expect discipline (Heb 12:6).
"I am in favor of discipline. For children. But at some point shouldn't you stand up on your hind legs and be a man?"
We are children--of wrath or of God. I would agree that we should stand erect as God made us and stop acting like an animal.
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "There's no historical evidence of Jesus ever existing and the Gospels were written decades after his death."
Considering historical documents, the gospels were written relatively quickly after Jesus' death. Ron Rhodes has done extensive work on this if you are interested. Usually even atheists admit that Jesus existed. There is overwhelming evidence for his life, death, burial and resurrection. It was big news so people wrote it down. But ok, there is no evidence for anything if you close your eyes and ears. Meanwhile, those who have had their ears cleaned have learned that he is able to clean up the rest of the body and soul too (Eze 12:2).
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "Your God loves us all equally."
No, God makes his opinion of you clear (Ps 7:11). Pride is believing that you can live without God (Mal 1:3). If you die with that pride you will not end up in a good place. God loves you but he will live without you.
"Like what? Which biblical principles was this nation founded on?"
Like the ten commandments--Judeo-Christian ethics. Our country was an experiment. It may be turning into the the bride of Frankenstein, but it was a good idea. Patrick Henry said: "It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains."
"This nation was
not founded on Judeo-Christian ethics (what are they anyway?) or founded on the
10 Commandments. The founders were for the most part, hardly
fundamentalists. This nation was then, and is today one of the most liberal
nations on the entire planet..."
The future is assured. It's just the past that keeps
changing.
--Russian joke
"...It also helps to point out that Republican does not necessarily mean conservative and democrat does not necessarily mean liberal. It depends on the issue and the stance taken on the issue. Everyone is getting this confused these days."
The Republicans and the Democrats are dumb and dumber.
"And conservative Americans are so much more liberal than they will ever realize, much less admit.
I agree with you. People who identify themselves as "conservatives" are generally liberal.
"Please quote me a verse from the KJV, OT or NT, that established the principle of religious freedom."
The Bible does not promote "religion" other than Judaism. Our system of government is imperfect. Any system with God would work fine. Any system without God ultimately fails. I would recommend Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg. It explains the fascistic tendencies of those on the left.
See:
"[A believer can expect discipline when they sin (Heb 12:6).] What about our salvation? What effect does our disobedience have on that?"
I would recommend that a believer discipline him or herself. God's discipline is far worse. It is the unbeliever who should worry if their lives are smooth sailing. It may indicate that they are not the child of God that they think they are.
"Your idea that all things good are ipso facto "Christian" and all things bad are all some form of the non-Christian is nothing more than an on-going expression of your ignorance and prejudice. People like you really amuse. Your ego seems bigger than your God's."
Would you prefer Godless heathens in charge? Rights come from God not the constitution. Everything good thing is from God (James 1:17) and everything bad comes from the result of sin's presence in the world after the fall of man. We are to occupy until the Lord's return (Lk 19:13). We do not let the wicked of the world decide what is right and what is wrong. We are in a battle against those who hate God and we will not surrender.
"Answer the question. Is our salvation effected by our obedience?"
Once you are saved no one can snatch you out of the Father's hand (Jn 10:29). When a believer doubts his/her salvation, they have been deceived or the enemy is tormenting them. However, there are many who believe that they are saved but are going to hell. We are fruit inspectors (Mt 7:16). When a person trusts the Lord, he naturally does what it is the Lord would have him do. Loving the Lord is not a burden. It can be tribulation but not a burden.
"[T]he most affective way to express love is openly minus the criticism...There are other ways to express love..."
What have you gleaned from this bible verse? Is it wiser to trust your own understanding or yield to God's wisdom (Pr 3:5)?
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "It means if you don't agree with our particular doctrine then we can be harsh and insulting because it's for your own good... in true Orwellian double speak it means. Hate is Love."
Jesus said there is one way, one truth, one way to life (Jn 14:6). If we preached anything else, we would not be following the teachings of Jesus. If you are speaking to a true, blue Christian, they speak out of a desire to see people saved. We aren't earning points. Like a seed being planted in the ground, we must die to ourselves to live. A Christian is like a piece of fruit. We exist to yield more fruit.
When we have the heart of our Father, our desires are his desires and it is his desire for you to repent and be saved (2 Pet 3:9). If you had a wayward sibling, wouldn't you do everything that you could to see that he/she returns back home safely? That's what we do.
The world was perfect (Ge 1:3) and that all changed when Adam & Eve sinned (Ge 3:6). Atheists tend to blame God for all that is not right in the world. Image for a moment that God is who he said he is: holy, loving, kind, merciful, just, righteous and good. Meditate on these characteristics. Consider it for just a while, if nothing else but to understand these annoying Christians around. We are worn vessels. We aren't perfect. But God is perfect. Start with holiness. Imagine what that means.
Maybe the next verse will add some context to the argument: "Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful [Prov. 27:5–6]." J. Vernon McGee said of this verse: "...[T]he contrasting thought is, of course, exemplified in Judas who betrayed Jesus with a kiss."
"By rebuking rebuke you become a rebuker. Does that make sense?"
A self-refuting statement: "There is no truth."--"Is that true?"; "It's wrong to judge me."--"Is that your judgment?"; "There is nothing known absolutely."--"Absolutely?"; "It is wrong to rebuke me."--"Then why are you rebuking me?"
"Open rebuke is love carefully revealed (Newman, TOL)."
That's right (Pr 27:5).
Response to comment: "'Liberal' is just a word, just like 'conservative' is a word. Both were invented by humans. Neither comes with an absolute meaning sent down by a [G]od....Apparently someone has brain-washed you and put in too much starch. LOL."
A
few housekeeping items...
The Bible uses words like wicked and righteous; good and evil. Would you prefer that use the terms "wicked liberal" and "righteous fundamentalists"? Classical liberalism is not modern liberalism. Modern liberals tend to prefer the term "progressives" (even when they are regressive). Liberals (or "the wicked" if you prefer) use language dishonestly. When they are found out, they change language in an attempt to improve their image. When I use the term "liberal", I am referring to those who align themselves with the left. God is on the right (Eccl 10:2).
Response to comment: "[S]erpentdove, put a dictionary on your Christmas list. You clearly need one."
Thankfully, you don't worship me. When you find a perfect person that would be Jesus (Enyart).
