Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Actually, the battle is between obedience and pride. Luther chose pride over obedience. What do you choose?"
Luther chose the Word of God over Tradition (Col 2:8). Abel chose the true good works over thorns.
Morris wrote:
"Cain could no longer produce the fruits by which he had sought to approach God. The earth would no longer yield its increase for him, and he must become a “wanderer” in the earth. In like manner, those who attempt to earn salvation by their good works find ultimately that, of themselves, they can produce only “thorns and thistles.” The true “good works” are those which only God can work in us through faith (note Ephesians 2:8–10). Though God allowed Cain to live for a time in the earth, just as today He allows the “tares and the wheat,” the good seed and the bad seed, to grow together until the time of harvest (Matthew 13:24–30; 36–43), yet Cain’s ultimate fate, as one who had “known the way of righteousness” but had turned “from the holy commandment delivered unto them [him]” (2 Peter 2:21), is condemnation.
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Do you deny that there was a first Church?"
Christ is the cornerstone of the church (1 Pet. 2:4–6).
J. Vernon McGee said:
Response to comment: "Luther chose the pride of Luther. 'My word is the word of Christ; my mouth is the mouth of Christ.'"
I believe Luther meant that his words are the words of Christ not the Church. In other words, he was willing to depart from the church (an idol in this case) to uphold the teachings of the word of God. Martin Luther studied the word of God as men should. The Roman Catholic Church held an elitist position believing that the word of God was for them alone, not for the common man. Thankfully today, they encourage study of the word and won't murder you anymore. That is an improvement.
I am not a defender of Martin Luther. I do not worship Martin Luther. I worship Christ and defend his word as believers always have. A believer is one who comes to Christ on his terms--by faith. A make-believer is one who plays pious, but comes to God on his own terms-- by works or the way of Cain. There has always been one way to come to God--by faith. If you insist upon works, you will be judged by your works at the Great White Throne judgment. You will not enter into heaven if you go the way of Cain. Your works cannot save you. Only Christ's work on the cross saves. Christ has never relinquished his authority although apostate churches try to steal it. If you do not abide in Christ's word you are not his (Jn 8:31). If you do not love truth, you have never known the father (1 Jn 4:6). To be saved, you worship the true God (not a wafer, not Mary, not other interesting saints) [Jn 4:24].
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "That's a tired, old argument that has been soundly demolished by ex-Evangelical Steve Ray..."
An ex-Evangelical? Does that mean he is no longer interested in preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ (Mk 16:15)? I doubt he ever was (1 Jn 2:19). And we are supposed to believe that he has God's heart in mind (2 Pe 3:9)? Believers refuse the: different Jesus, different gospel and different way of salvation as taught in Roman Catholic Church. We labor on in the one, true gospel (Eph 3:4, Ro 15:4). Reevaluate (Eph 2:8,9; Ro 3:27-28, Mk 7:7-9). Be a Berean (Ac 17:11), Prove all things (1 Thess 5:21).
"Why not read one or two of these stories? It won't kill you."
We point people to the word of God as an authority. I have studied these testimonies. They are feelings-based not biblical. We walk by faith no matter how we feel (2 Cor 5:7). "We have access by faith into this grace in which we stand (Ro 5:2)." God must be worshipped in truth, not the truth of our choosing (Jn 4:24).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Forgive me if I'm not impressed by these formulaic arrangements of non-connected verses. I know this is a common strategy with "bible-only" folks, but anyone can make up a thesis and then find verses that "fit" the script, so as to "prove" that you're right. Even Luther said as much: 'Heretofore I have held that where something was to be proved by the Scriptures, the Scriptures quoted must really refer to the point at issue. I learn now that it is not enough to throw many passages together helter-skelter whether they fit or not. If this is to be the way, then I can easily prove from the Scriptures that beer is better than wine.'"
We should love the whole Bible and be familiar with both the Old Testament and New Testament. God's word is consistent (2 Ti 2:15). We should challenge what does not ring true or we will be held responsible (Eze 33:8).
"Steve Ray once thought like you. He in fact was a raving anti-Catholic. His story is quite interesting as is the stories of most ex-Protestants."
I don't follow Steve Ray. I follow Jesus. I am neither anti-Catholic nor pro-Protestant. I am pro-Jesus and his gospel (Ro 1:16). What I say is irrelevant. What the word of God says is very relevant. Roman Catholics teach parishioners to trust the church and their way. The Bible teaches to trust Christ and his way (1 Thess 5:21, Jn 14:6). God's word is the final word. It's not faith to reject the word of God. It is a lack of faith.
"To me the funniest thing is the fact that Protestants love to bring up 1 Jn 2:19 whenever one of their own sees the light and "crosses the Tiber". However, a simple historical analysis shows that 1 Jn 2:19 applies to Protestants, beginning with Luther. Remember... you went out from us. Not the other way around."
Do you mean the river Jordan (where Peter first recognized Jesus (not the Pope) as the Christ [Mark 8:27-29])? A little leaven leavens the whole lump--a little lie mixed with truth destroys people (Ga 5:9). If you do not love the word of God, you may love church, but you are not loving the Lord. He is the Word (Jn 1:1). Those who hear the truth and respond to it love the truth: "The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who respond to it will live (Jn 5:25)." If you do not hold the word of God as an authority with the Holy Spirit (not Rome) as your teacher, then you will be deceived each and every time.
The "us" are identified in Jn 8:31.
The church is not a denomination at that has an exclusive claim to Christ (as the cults and 'isms claim). Christ's church is an organic body of believers throughout the world headed by Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit.
The church:
1. Belongs to God. 1Ti 3:15.
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "...By whose authority is [the] word of God taught and interpreted? Is the Bible a witness to itself and if it is, why is that not in the Bible?"
That is in the Bible (2 Pe 1:20-21). The one you call the first Pope told men to heed the word of God-- not idolize him (2 Pe 1:19).
"Because you don't follow the teachings of the [Roman Catholic] church can I safely assume that that your manmade interpretation of the Bible is infallible?"
It is the Holy Spirit who is our teacher. If you trust man, you get man's wisdom. Peter knew to trust the Lord (not the Roman Catholic Church) [2 Pet. 3:15, 16]. He prayed for the Holy Spirit (not for himself) to be his teacher (Ac 8:15-18).
The Holy Spirit is:
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Were these men/sinners that Jesus hand-picked able to write down the Word but not able to teach it or hand it down? The Sola in Sola Scriptura is so foul and so wrong that it forces you to come to such conclusions."
Jesus gives us this conclusion (Jn 8:31). The primary way that we come to the knowledge of the truth is through the word of God.
"Everybody claims that they believe only what's in the Bible but that's never true. No one escapes "tradition" of one kind or another."
Men can be deceived. When you follow men, you get corruption (2 Pet. 2:14, 15) and error (Jude 11). Only trust in Christ will get you to heaven (Jn 14:6). Believers follow the traditions given by the word of God not men (2 Thes 2:15). Consider the perversions which have occurred in the Roman Catholic Church due to a departure from the word of God: No Sacrifice, No Altering Commandments, No Purgatory, No Mary Worship, No Praying the Rosary, No Papal Authority, No Mediator, No Celibacy of Priests, No Assurance in Infant Baptism, No Abstaining from Meat on Fridays, Works vs. Faith
"Steve Ray is merely an ex-anti-Catholic Evangelical Protestant. I don't follow him. However I believe he has great insight into biblical scholarship."
I have studied these supposedly scholarly claims. They are feelings based. Read what the Bible has to say about Roman Catholic false teaching.
See:
Scriptural Response to St. Joseph Communications
"How do we know? (Eph 4:11-16, 1 Tim 3:15)
Christ never relinquished his authority. The gifts that you mentioned from Ephesians are given to believers in Christ. J. Vernon McGee wrote:
"The Church is responsible for preserving the Word of God."
Christ is responsible for preserving his word (Mt 16:18). In fact, the canon of scripture is made up of the books that men were willing to die for.
"You wouldn't have your bible from which you mis-interpret to attack the Church if it wasn't for the Church."
The glory you give to your church (idolatry) should be given to Christ (1 Pe 5:11).
[The "us" are identified in Jn 8:31.] "If that's the case, why would you apply it to ex-Evangelical Protestant Steve Ray then?"
What matters is your ultimate authority. Is it the word of God or is it men? The former leads to life; the latter to death (Jn 14:6).
[The church is an organic body of believers worldwide] "How can this be? All Protestants say this. Yet there's 40,000+ denominations disagreeing on fundamental doctrinal issues..."
We are commanded to be of one mind (Phil 2:2) but we are not. Cain loved his fruit basket, too. God didn't (Jud 1:11). God has answered the man-made way of unrighteousness and error out of the back of a donkey (Num. 22:22–35; 2 Pet. 2:16).
[1 Ti 1:15]
J. Vernon McGee wrote:
"The Church must be of one mind, one faith, one doctrine."
The church is made up of those who trust in Christ alone (Jn 4:24). If you do not believe the word of God, you are ready to believe the lie (Mt 24:24, Rev. 19:20).
[Jn 8:31, 2 Thes 2:15] "The Word of God, once again, is not limited to what was written...Doesn't this apply to you? Aren't you a man? What makes you think you have the Truth? Couldn't you and your beliefs/ideas/philosophies/doctrines be subject to corruption? The Paraclete was promised to the Apostles acting in their capacity as the Church."
My way is irrelevant. God's way is all important. God's way is revealed in his word. When we depart from his word (Jn 8:31) and way (Jn 14:6), doctrine becomes corrupted. If we have received Christ as our savior, then we have all that we need for living the Christian life. Salvation is a person (Col 2:6). If you have Christ, then you have the truth (Jn 14:6). He does not leave or forsake the believer (Heb 13:5). When one receives Christ as savior, he can know with certainty that he is sealed into the kingdom of heaven (1 Jn 5:13). A seal in ancient times was like the signature to a final document. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is the down payment to the believer (2 Cor 1:22). He will guide the believer in all truth (Jn 16:13). They are made into Christ's likeness-- from glory to glory (2 Cor 3:18).
Although God does not give us specific information in his word, he gives us clear principles which we can apply to modern circumstances. God no longer speaks through the prophets today, so we abide in his word for guidance. Revival always starts with a return to the word of God (2 Ki 22:8).
"Couldn't you and
your
beliefs/ideas/philosophies/doctrines
be subject to
corruption?"
When we depart from
God's word,
corruption ensues.
But God's word will
not fail us (Mt
5:18). Any
church or
organization which
replaces God's
authority with man's
authority will
become corrupted.
"Your translation has zero authority. Or will you claim that your translation is inspired? Your lengthy article dealing with of Ephesians 4:11-16 is unnecessary. It's one of the few areas in the Bible that are crystal-clear. Christ gave us a Church."
The Holy Spirit was
promised after Jesus
ascension into
heaven (Jn 16:7).
Jesus heads the
church (Eph 1:22;
5:23). He is
the foundation-stone
of (1Co 3:11; Eph
2:20; 1Pe 2:4,5.
4). The Holy
Spirit's primary
ministry is to point
people to Christ.
You know you are
dealing with the
spirit of
anti-Christ with any
person or
organization that
points to himself or
his church (e.g.
cults and 'isms).
"Your claim that
we are all equals in
the Church is wrong.
Paul asks: "Are all
apostles? Are all
prophets? Are all
doctors? Are all
workers of miracles?
Have all the grace
of healing? Do all
speak with tongues?
Do all interpret?".
To which the obvious
answer is: no (See 1
Corinthians 12:18
and in fact the
whole of 1
Corinthians 12).
The Protestant
notion that we are
all of equal rank in
the Church is a
pipe-dream. The
Church is not a
democracy. That
is not to say that
God sees the Pope as
more valuable than
me. However,
"God hath set the
members every one of
them in the body as
it hath pleased
him." I am a
merely one who
believes in Christ,
a lamb in His flock.
I can't presume to
understand the
Scriptures or have a
grasp of His
Mysteries as well as
those He Himself
has chosen to
guide and feed His
flock."
The church is not for elite members run only out of Rome. The Pope has his reward (Mt 6:2). Believers meanwhile, are a royal priesthood (1 Pe 2:9).
The replacement theology that Roman Catholics teach is not biblical. The Roman Catholic Church did not replace Israel. God is not finished with the nation Israel.
"One day they show up to a Protestant 'worship' service and get taken in by the clapping, the hollering, the rock-n-roll music. Then they perform the altar call, recite a few words and suddenly, magically, they have a ticket to heaven. And never mind what you do henceforth or whether you love your neighbor, or whether you care about anything but yourself... you're "saaved". But all that glitters..."
No church can save you. No alter call or "burning of the bosom" can save you. No baptism can save you. Only the person of Jesus saves (Isa 63:9; Eph 5:23, Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12).
"Except you didn't post a link to the Bible. You posted a link with convenient Protestant interpretations of the Bible. I can do the same and point you to sites that are more biblical, logical and intellectually honest. You're not doing too well so far."
Here is the Catholic publication of these Bible verses: Biblical Answers for Catholics St. Joseph's Communications and a scriptural response to it: A Scriptural Response to: Biblical Answers for Catholics St. Joseph Communications.
What hermeneutic (outside of Rome) do you use to study God's word? You can believe all that the Roman Catholic Church teaches, or you can compare their teachings to the word of God (Ac 17:11).
"He [Jesus] shares His authority with those He chose?"
Jesus said: "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. (Jn 15:14-15)." God does not share his authority with any man. We cannot make the Bible say something that it never said. God will always be God and we will always be his creation. The born again believer is considered a friend of Jesus (Jn 3:7), but he maintains an appropriate reverence and awe for him. It is wicked to ask God to move over on his throne to share authority with sinful man. This is the Spirit of anti-Christ to believe: "I am beautiful. I should be God."
"Was this a typo? Did you seriously use Matthew 16:18 to prove that the Church had no role in preserving the written Word of God through time?"
Our definitions of "church" are not the same. A proper reading of Mt 16:18 leads one to the conclusion that God (not the Pope) is still on the throne and the gates of hell will not prevail against him.
[Canon of scripture]
Catholics added historically significant (though not inspired) books to the "bible" to justify their false teaching against the word of God. There are 66 books which appropriately belong in the Bible.
See:
Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible
Did Constantine Decide What Books Belong in the Bible?
What Occurred at the Council of Nicea?
"I worship Christ, not the Church. However, don't forget that the Church is the Body of Christ. I can say the same to you about your bible."
Worship of Christ must be in spirit and in truth (Jn 4:24). A believer places trust in Christ alone (2 Cor 13:5). The only work you can do to get into heaven is to believe (Jas 2:17). There is one gospel. Peter and Paul agreed on this (2 Pet. 3:15, 16). The gospel is a dispensation of the grace of God (Eph 3:2) through faith, not of works (Eph 2:8). Christ's ministers have a stewardship to preach this (1 Co 9:17). Anyone who preaches another gospel is accursed (Ga 1:8). The rejection of this gospel was foretold (Isa 53:1; Ro 10:15,16). One who has been born again is freed from doctrines of demons (Jn 8:32). He does not continue to believe or teach them.
"You are your own ultimate authority. The same goes for all who claim as you do that the Bible is the ultimate authority. If it was that simple, everyone would agree. The written Word of God does not make any claim to be the ultimate authority. On the contrary, it reserves this honor for the Church (1 Timothy 3:15)."
The word of God is the believer's authority. No church has authority over God's word.
(Psa. 50:16, 17; Prov. 1:29, 30; Prov. 13:13; Isa. 5:24; Isa. 28:9–14; Isa. 30:9–11; Isa. 53:1; Jer. 6:10; Jer. 8:9; Hos. 8:12; Amos 2:12; Mic. 2:6; Luke 16:31; Luke 24:25; John 3:20; John 5:46, 47; John 8:37, 45; 1 Cor. 1:18, 22, 23; 2 Tim. 3:8; 2 Tim. 4:3, 4; 1 Pet. 2:8; 2 Pet. 3:15, 16; Rev. 22:19).
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth [1 Tim. 3:15].
[Of one mind (Phil 2:2)] "You are not, because you fail to "hear His Church" (Matthew 18:17), and as such you have no hope of ever meeting "into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man" because you have cut yourself off and are as a branch that is cast off and will wither. Christ established a Church for a reason. It is His instrument to lead us to Him and to edify us unto perfect unity in Him."
Jesus is the vine (figurative [e.g. we were not meant to eat or worship vines]). Believers in Him are the branches (figurative [e.g. not the Roman Catholic Church or living branches]). Jesus said: "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you (Jn 15:5-7)." Abiding in his word, is studying it, knowing it, and taking it to heart.
"[A]ll Christians, Protestant and Catholics alike believe in salvation through Christ alone."
Believers trust in Christ alone as the Bible teaches (Jn 14:6). Not Jesus plus...Jesus period. When an individual or church organization adds to Jesus' word and his finished work on the cross (Jn 19:30), he blasphemes the name of the Lord (Pr 30:6). Believing on the name of the Lord, is not dead profession of a creed (Re 3:1). It is belief in all that Jesus said and did.
"'[F]aith alone', [was] basically was invented by Luther in the 16th century, but you know that already."
Men have always come to the Lord one way--by faith. The Lord (not the Roman Catholic Church) is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2). Men have always been justified before God by faith alone (Ro 4:16). Self-justification (Ro 10:3,4) and boasting (Ro 3:27) will never save a person. Christ takes up residence in the believer (Eph 3:17) enabling him to comprehend the truth. Faithless men do not have this (Jn 10:26,27). Only those who are born again, have faith (1 Jo 5:1). Wicked men often profess faith but don't have it (Ac 8:13,21).
"You believe in 'faith alone' because 'Luther will have it so'."
Luther is irrelevant. Men have always come to the Lord by faith alone.
"'[W]ord alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text" (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127)."
The word "internet" is not in the Bible. Should men avoid porn (Ex. 20:14)?
To follow the Bible, we must know the Bible. A study of the Old and New Testament reveals a God who calls a people for for his namesake by faith alone. Adam was repentant after his sin. He had to be forced out of the perfect garden (Ge 3:23). God had to post guards to keep him out (Ge 3:24) because the world was forever changed by his sin.
We come to God on his terms, not our own (Jude 11). Every person is responsible before a holy God. Men believe the lies that they want to believe (2 Ti 4:3). The problem with this world is sin. To get to the root of the problem, one must admit his own sin and repent before God (Mr 1:15; Lu 24:47). When he believes he is converted (Ac 11:21). The scriptures are designed for this purpose (Jn 20:31; 2Ti 3:15).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "[2 Thessalonians 2:15]. There you have it. Unwritten traditions are to be heeded just as written ones. It's in the Bible, folks. There's really no need for further discussion given that, except as a courtesy to 'Bible Christians'" to show them that you actually could make a strictly scriptural case for our position. They rarely seem appreciative, however."
As long as you agree on the one, true gospel (one of faith [Eph 3:2] not works [Eph 2:8]), then we can all get along (Eph 6:15). Then, you would agree with both Peter and Paul, following their tradition in truth (once temporarily confused by Peter [Gal. 2:14] but resolved [2 Pet. 3:15, 16]). Anyone who preached a different gospel (e.g. the gospel of works as taught by the Roman Catholic Church) is accursed (Ga 1:8). Satan loves to exploit any departure from God's word. It is a good thing we hold to it when we live with tares who would attempt to pervert and distort it (Ga 1:6,7; 2:14; 2Ti 1:13).
Response to comment: "Protestantism...is a heresy."
Protestantism resulted from a much needed return to the word of God. This is called revival not heresy.
See:
"Some are born into Protestant families and never hear about the faith or come to reject it and so are not said to be heretics. Hence St. Augustine says..."
Some become born again--washed by God's word. Augustine taught Greek paganism.
"The Church loves and desires that he returns to her unity so that he may be saved..."
Unity comes from good doctrine. Truth divides. It is supposed to (Mt 10:34).
"The Church who is commanded by her Lord to love her enemies wills no ill to those who are not yet united with her or who after being united have separated themselves from her. But in applying the medicine of maternal correction she extends her arms in love like a mother and gladly receives those who desire to join her."
Does Mary have anything to do with applying this "maternal correction"? Does Mary "extend her arm"? Does she "receive those who desire to join her"? If Mary can hear prayer wouldn't that make her something other than a human being? The Roman Catholic Church's official teaching is that Mary is co-deity. This is not a biblical position.
Mary was a sinner who needed to come to Christ for salvation as any one else. Mary cannot hear prayer. Mary is not a god. It is wicked and blasphemous idolatry to pray to anyone but God. The Second Commandment teaches: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments (Ex 20:3-6).
Response to comment [from a Catholic to a Christian]: [Sodomite priests raping boys] "You clearly have done little to no study of Catholic theology and apologetics....Jesus gave us a Church for a reason. What reason?"
If you rape the word of God, blame the victim. Some people want to be lied to so that they can persist in their sin (Jn 3:19). The gospel is hidden to those who are lost. Do they preach themselves or Christ? :"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake (Co 4:2-5)."
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Mary co-deity] "Actually, it is fully biblical. We sons of God are partakers of the Divine nature. That would mean we are not merely called sons of God, but... that is what we are!"
It is not biblical to believe that we will be gods (Mary, or any other saint). It is not biblical to remove the second commandment from teaching.
Response to comment: "That's what I don't understand... on the one hand you say that when you follow men, you get corruption. On the other, you quote extensively from J. Vernon McGee. It's almost as if his writings were your bible..."
J. Vernon was a great Bible teacher. He taught the Bible verse by verse--pointing to Jesus in every book of the Old and New Testament. If he were to point to himself, or preach a gospel different than what the Bible teaches, I would not believe him. Bible teachers need our support.
There are other fine commentaries (Bible Knowledge Commentary, Tyndale Concise Bible Commentary, The MacArthur Study Bible, The Outline Bible) but I think J. Vernon is the best. He knew how to point people to Christ--“to put the cookies on the bottom shelf so that the kiddies could get them.”
I trust the word of God, the sword of the spirit (Eph 6:17) to cut through false teaching.
Response to comment: "How do you know that Mary cannot hear prayer? Luke 15:7 I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance. Evidently, those in heaven are aware of what happens on earth."
Those in heaven are aware of anything God wishes to share with them. If Mary could hear prayer she would have to be omnipotent and she is not. She was born a human being, in Adam, a sinner in need of a savior like every other human being. Mary was well aware of this (Lk 1:47). Prayer directed to anyone but God is idolatrous. Prayer is to be to God (Ps 5:2; Mt 4:10, Lu 23:42; Ac 7:59, 2Th 3:5) through Christ (Eph 2:18; Heb 10:19). God (not Mary) hears prayer (Ps 10:17; 65:2). God (not Mary) answers prayer (Ps 99:6; Isa 58:9). Nowhere in the Bible are we taught to pray to Mary. Although Mary was a lovely woman, she was not perfect as the Roman Catholic Church teaches (e.g. she lost Jesus for example[Luke 2:48–51]). She was not forever a virgin (e.g. she had normal relations with her husband after the birth of Jesus and other children).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "She didn't say that. Are you illiterate, or just a trouble maker?"
I point out the cults and 'ism appeal to the flesh and man's pride. Most Catholics do not believe that they will be gods (as Mormons do, for example). But worshiping other gods (including the self, Mary, etc.) is idolatry. Idolatry and other departures from the word of God leads to corruption, which we see in church organizations today.
The Bible teaches that in the latter days, people will teach these doctrines of demons (1 Ti 4:1-5). Do you recognize the false teachings of The Roman Catholic Church that the apostle Paul lists in 1 Ti 4:1-5? "Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron" (modern day Pharisees); "forbidding to marry" (e.g. Roman Catholic priests); "and commanding to abstain from foods" (do not eat meat on Fridays).
Apostasy is nothing new. The good news is that the gospel is being preached around the world. But the Christian must remain vigilant to share the truth of the true gospel (one of grace by faith) [Mt. 24:12; 2 Thess. 2:3]. Anything you fear more, serve more, or trust more than God is an idol. A church can be an idol if you bow down to it (Ro 14:11). We are not to divide our devotion for some golden calf. All devotion should be given to Jesus alone. Idolatry is the mother-sin of all other sins.
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [God's awareness vs. saint's awareness] "Where is this in the Bible?"
Now we know only in part (1 Cor 8:2, 13:12). We will forever be learning in eternity. God is God and we (including Mary) will always be his creation.
[Mary] "Is she not part of the Body of Christ?"
Mary is a saint who has gone to paradise to be with Jesus. Saints in heaven and on earth glory God not themselves (2 Thes 1:10, Is. 49:3; John 17:10; 1 Thes 2:12). God does not share his glory with another (Isa 42:8).
"We don't know what it's like in heaven...Idolatry, by definition, is adoration of something other than God. Asking the Saints who have preceded us in their union with Christ to pray for us, to interceded for us with Jesus, is not idolatry."
We know that Jesus (not Mary) is all-powerful in heaven. Jesus said: “All authority has been given to Me [not Mary] in heaven and on earth (Mt 28:18)."
All of creation (including Mary) is subject to Jesus: "...who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him (1 Pe 3:21-22)."
"We do know that those in heaven are aware of what happens on earth (Luke 15:7)."
The shepherd in this parable is Jesus. He seeks the lost sheep.
The Bible says that the dead are ignorant of all human affairs on earth (Ec 9:5). Only idolaters invoke and consult the dead (1Sa 28:7,8).
"You're also not told to do altar calls or recite sinner's prayers or have revivals."
Would John the Baptist have offended you? Jesus said there was no one greater (11:11). John the Baptist preached repentance (Matt. 3:2; Mark 1:4, 15; Luke 3:3). Jesus preached repentance (Matt. 4:17; Mark 1:15). The apostles preached repentance (Mark 6:12). A Bible-believing Christian preaches repentance. It is "The Gospel of the Kingdom of God,’’ (Mark 1:14, 15; 2:2; Luke 8:1).
A revival is a return to God. Revival is a good thing (Zech. 8:20–23).
"We are to pray for each other and we are told that the prayers of the just "availeth much".
Christ set the example for intercessory prayer. It is not to be to Mary (Lu 22:32; 23:34; Joh 17:9-24). We are not to babble like pagans (e.g. the rosary) [Mt 6:7]. Stiff-necked (Jer 17:23) idolaters always resist God's grace (Ac 7:51) and seek idols (Eze 6:9). There is only one mediator between us and God (1 Ti 2:5).
"Why would you necessarily believe that it was Mary and not Joseph who "lost Jesus"?"
Is Mary perfect as Roman Catholics teach? Was her body taken up into heaven before her death in anticipation of the resurrection as taught by Pope "Pius" XII in 1950? The Bible teaches that all (including Mary) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Ro. 3:22-24). There is no mention of Mary's body rising into heaven after her death in the Bible or other writings of the early church. Roman Catholics teach adoration and worship of Mary. The Bible does not teach Mary-worship.
"Mary's virginity has been had a hundred times. When you read the bible in the cultural/linguistic context of the times you cannot prove what you just said."
Jesus had brothers and sisters. She was not the "ever virgin" as taught by Roman Catholics (Mt 13:55-56, Mk 6:3, Mt 1:24-25).
"[A] certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!' But He [Jesus] said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'" (Lk 11:27-28, emphasis added).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "The church is at the service of The Body, not the other way around."
That's a good point. "[T]ake heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church (Ac 20:27-28)."
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Who did the Holy Spirit make overseers? Isn't that an important question? What if an individual proclaims a truth that contradicts the overseers?"
If a person is a born again believer (Jn 3:7) he is a member of a royal priesthood (1 Pe 2:9). Caring for the flock is feeding them the word of God (1 Pe 5:2). The gifts of the Spirit vary from one believer to another (1 Cor. 12:4-11). Scripture makes it clear that Christ (not Peter) is the cornerstone of his church (1Co 3:11; Eph 2:20; 1Pe 2:4,5). Christ (not the Pope) is the head of his church (Eph 1:22; 5:23). The church is subject the Christ (not Rome) [Ro 7:4; Eph 5:24]. Believers are being added to the church by Christ (not by Roman Catholic Church membership) [Ac 2:27; 5:14; 11:24].
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "There is only one truth. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error regarding faith and moral teachings. Some assume that their personal interpretation is the correct understanding of scripture, even though scripture tells us not to lean on our own understanding."
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is Jesus' representation on earth. According to their official teaching, he is infallible. If that is true, why does he make mistakes? Why do "infallible" Popes change their teachings throughout the centuries?
Of course, they are not infallible. But the word of God is. True believers speak the word of God and the true gospel with boldness (Acts 4:31). The word is living and active in the life of the believer (Heb. 4:12). Children of God learn from the word of God (not the Pope) [2 Tim. 3:15–17]. It is the word of God (not the Eucharist) that regenerates the believer [James 1:18].
The believer is in awe of the word of God (not the Roman Catholic Church) [Ps. 119:161]. His steps are guided by the word of God (not the Roman Catholic Church) [Ps. 119:133]. The source of new life is the word of God (not Roman Catholic baptism) [1 Pet. 1:23]. It is the word of God that is spiritual food (not the Eucharist) [1 Pet. 2:2].
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [The Bible] "Do you also believe that you hold the keys to the kingdom?"
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [Matt. 16:19].
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "A very narrowly applied concept..."
Not narrow enough. The Vatican has great influence throughout the world. Does the Pope resemble a babe, wrapped in swaddling cloths, laid in a manger, because there was no room for him in the inn? The way of works, resulting from greed, while rejecting the authority of God leads a person and a church organization to hell (Jud 11).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [link: legitimate obedience to the Pope]
I viewed your link. Why would we be obedient to a false teacher who denies: the real Jesus, the real gospel and the real way of salvation (Jn 14:6). The Pope does not teach historical, biblical Christianity. We are to be obedient to Christ not the Pope according to the Bible:
Muslims, Buddhist and Hindus are agreeing with you in your support for papal authority.
Also see:
Pro-Gospel Newsletter Vol 18 No 3
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Can you explain this: All Protestant denominations opposed birth control on biblical grounds up until the 1930's. Since then, almost all Protestants believe it's ok. Why? Did God change? Did His Word change? What changed?"
Christians oppose sexual sin (e.g. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc.) [1 Cor 6:9-10]. If people are easing up on God's standards, they are not born again (Jn 3:7). We will know the believer from the make-believer by his fruits (Mt 7:16). Roman Catholics ought to be respected because they are strong on the life issue. It would seem that there are many Roman Catholics wishing to know God and his righteousness (Mt 6:33).
You are right, God's standards do not change (Mal 3:6). Our time seems like the days of Noah. It would seem for all Noah's work, not many listened to him. Today, God allows apostasy. It sharpens and improves his saints. But he will not allow it to go on forever. We stand in the truth until he returns (Re 3:11).
"By not following him who was left to feed His sheep, Protestants have scattered and Ezekiel 34 has come to pass again in the modern day: And my sheep were scattered, because there was no shepherd and they became the prey of all the beasts of the field, and were scattered. My sheep have wandered in every mountain, and in every high hill: and my flocks were scattered upon the face of the earth."
The Protestant reformers sought a return to the authority of the word of God. The divide was necessary. The word "compromise" is not in the Bible.
Ezekiel 34 is about false prophets. "Feeding the flocks" is feeding them the word of God. If a church does not give out God's word, it should not collect an offering. God’s criticism of the false prophets is that they have not given the people what they need. People can sit in a church and be bored because they are dead spiritually. Only when one is born again (Jn 3:7) can he begin to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth. Men know God more as they spend time in his word. Has your church taught from the epistle to the Galatians?
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Steve Ray will set you straight."
I have listened to his audio CD. It was heavy on feelings and soft on scripture. He said that he gave himself over to "whatever" force. His experience sounded demonic to me.
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Keys to the Kingdom]
"The ultimate power to open and close the gates of heaven is the Gospel, which "is the power of God for the salvation of all who believe" (Romans 1:16). Peter's first proclamation of the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts chapter 2, opened the door of the kingdom to thousands. Since then, the disciples, and all Christians who have succeeded them, have been opening and closing the doors of the kingdom with the Gospel. Those who hear it and believe it are forgiven (loosed) of their sin and enter the kingdom, while those who reject the Gospel remain unforgiven (bound) of their sins and can not enter the kingdom (John 3:36).
The contrast between the Catholic interpretation of the "keys of the kingdom" and the historical-grammatical interpretation is significant. One centers around the teachings of men and is based on tradition and reason, while the other centers around the Word of God and is based on His revealed will and reign..." Full text: Keys to the Kingdom
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Roman Catholic Church & Doctrinal Changes]
The Roman Catholic Church is the John Kerry of churches.
See:
Response to comment [from a Christian in response to another Christian]: "So you are saying that the Holy Spirit can't work through men? Or that if those men (e.g., Catholics) don't agree with your opinions about God and religion, that by definition makes them wrong? The Catholic understanding is that the Holy Spirit sustains the Church through the men and woman who are called to serve Him. If you don't agree that the Holy Spirit can do that, that's certainly your right."
One of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is to woe men, pointing them to Jesus whether they are Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Do you think that people can resist the wooings of the Holy Spirit (Mt 12:32)? Can they sit in a church, synagogue, mosque or temple and fail to know the true and living Lord (Mt 7:23)? God is not willing that any should perish no matter what their background (2 Pe 3:9). Still, men resist all the way to hell.
Have you been to a Catholic Church? Do believe the Lord would be pleased with the mass (a celebration of death and a mockery of re-offering Jesus [Jn 19:30])? all the prayer beads (idolatry similar to Islamic babbling [Mt 6:7, 1 Ti 2:5])? The money plate being passed around (when the Word of God is not taught to edify [Jn 8:31])?
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "I'm sure He is. He told us to do it in memory of Him: Luke 22:19 And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. 20 In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you."
Christians celebrate in remembrance of him.
"Idolatry is like serpentdove making an idol of immersion-only baptism."
How can obedience be an idol? The Bible teaches immersion (Mt 3:16; Ac 8:38,39). Baptism does not save a person but it is the first act of obedience by a Christian. It is an outward and visible sign (Ac 8:36; 10:47). The first Christians proclaimed their faith and then were immediately baptized. We should not delay being baptized.
[Rosary]
"Is it right to call Mary “holy,” by which the Catholic Church means that Mary never sinned nor had any taint of original sin?...The Roman Catholic Church claims that Mary was saved from sin differently from everyone else--that she was saved from sin through the immaculate conception (her being conceived free of sin). But is this teaching scriptural? The Roman Catholic Church openly admits that this teaching is not found in Scripture...The Roman Catholic Church states that it worships God alone but that it “venerates” Mary and the saints. What is the difference?"
See:
Is Praying the Rosary Scriptural
"They don't take collections in your church?"
They give out the word of God verse by verse in my church. They have every right to ask for an offering. They also reveal the true Jesus, the true gospel and the true way of salvation (Rom. 15:25-31; cf. 1 Cor. 16:3-4; Acts 20:24; 24:17).
The Roman
Catholic Church & Other Churches