Travesty of Justice: Military Tribunal or Federal
Court
[Terror Verdict Tests Obama’s Strategy on Trials
by Charlie Savage] "The mixed verdict in the case of the first
Guantánamo detainee to be tried in a civilian court on Wednesday quickly
re-ignited a fierce debate over the
Obama administration’s effort to restore the role of the traditional
criminal justice system in handling terrorism prosecutions.
Ahmed Ghailani will face between 20 years and life in prison as a result
of his conviction on one charge related to the 1998 embassy bombings in
Africa. But because a jury acquitted him on more than 280 other charges
-- including every count of murder -- critics of the Obama
administration’s strategy on detainees said the verdict proved that
civilian courts could not be trusted to handle the prosecution of Al
Qaeda terrorists.
"This is a tragic wake-up call to the Obama Administration to
immediately abandon its ill-advised plan to try Guantánamo terrorists”
in federal civilian courts, said Representative Peter King, Republican
of New York. “We must treat them as wartime enemies and try them in
military commissions at Guantánamo.”
Full text
How should enemy combatants be tried?
Response to comment [from other]: "civilian criminal"
[FDR Understood How To Treat Enemy Combatants –
Why Can’t Obama? by Joseph Klein] "...FDR showed no hesitation in
treating the German saboteurs as alien enemy combatants, rather than as
criminal defendants entitled to a civil trial. He did not want to take
any chances with a civilian trial where secrecy could not be guaranteed
and legal technicalities could result in allowing the prisoners to go
free. Instead, he established a military tribunal, the first to be
convened in the United States since Lincoln’s day. The Supreme Court
upheld the President’s authority to do so.
The trial took a month. In less than two months after the first group of
saboteurs landed on our shores, six of the eight German agents were
electrocuted.
That is how to deal with alien enemy combatants..."
Full text
"...[E]lectrocuting prisoners of war is a questionable practice."
He's an
Al Qaeda terrorist (Gen.
9:6). He did not belong in a
civilian court room.
"The acquittal is seen as a major blow to the U.S.
government, as Ghailani was the first former Gitmo detainee to be tried
in a civilian courtroom. The case had been viewed as a possible test
case for President Barack Obama administration's aim of putting other
terror detainees -- including self-professed Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid
Sheik Mohammed and four other terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay,
Cuba -- on trial on U.S. soil..."
Full text: Gitmo Detainee Cleared of All but One Charge
Response to comment [from other]: "If they're war criminals, have
them shot for war crimes. If they are terrorists, try them for terrorism
in a civilian court. If they're just enemy combatants, keep them
detained until the war ends, treat them humanely and don't prosecute
them."
We do not try terrorists in civilian court.
They are not U.S. citizens. Military court is the proper venue.
Response to comment [from other]: "What does their citizenship
have to do with it?"
An enemy combatant does not have the rights
of a U.S. citizen.
Response to comment [from other]: "...[M]ilitary
commissions...have convicted just three terrorists..."
Enemy combatants belong in a military court.
They are not U.S. citizens. Didn't Eric Holder tell us "failure is
not an option" :rolleyes: --apparently it is. We are not global
citizens as :Nineveh: Obama and Holder would have you believe.
Response to comment [from other]: "Is the mere fact of being a
belligerent against the US a criminal offence?"
[Prosecutors: Ahmed Ghailani a Mass Murderer:
Government Presents Closing Arguments in Kenya, Tanzania Embassy
Bombings Case] "...Ghailani, from Zanzibar, Tanzania, then 24, was
one of the "implementers" of the embassy bombings, particularly in
Tanzania, Chernoff said, as he summarized four weeks of witness
testimony and evidence.
Ghailani and another operative purchased the used refrigeration truck
converted to a weapon of mass destruction in Tanzania, Chernoff said.
Ghailani then obtained some of the oxygen and flammable acetylene gas
tanks joined to the TNT to enhance the explosion, he said.
Ghailani also stored electric detonators - one and a half inch, aluminum
coated, PETN charged blasting caps - in the armoire of his Dar es Salaam
house. The FBI found one, along with clothing tainted with TNT residue.
"He doesn't realize he has left one detonator behind because he has so
many of them," Chernoff said.
Along with specific actions to advance the Tanazania bombing, Chernoff
reminded the jury how
numerous witnesses
placed Ghailani in 1998 in the company of known al Qaeda operatives and
embassy bombers, at "safe house" in coastal Mombasa, Kenya, at the house
Ghailani shared in Dar es Salaam, and riding in utility vehicles the
conspirators used to ferry supplies to their bomb making locations.
Two of these men seen with Ghailani - Mohamed Sadeek Odeh and Khalfan
Khamis Mohammed - were among four al Qaeda soldiers convicted in the
first embassy bombings trial in 2001 and serving life sentences.
"He wasn't just among them, he was one of them, he wasn't just along for
the ride," Chernoff said. "Ahmed Ghailani is no innocent."
Ghailani fled Tanzania using a fake name and passport the day before the
bombings "when all the plans for the massacre were in place," Chernoff
said. According to travel records, three senior al Qaeda leaders
involved with the East Africa's cell were on Ghailani's flight to
Karachi, Pakistan.
Records for a cell phone in Ghailani's name revealed a flurry of calls
in the first week of August 1998 to the houses where the truck bombs
were made and to a Nairobi hotel where al Qaeda operatives stayed.
The night before the attacks were the two longest calls, 17 minutes and
9 minutes, to a number in Egypt, followed by another call to Egypt the
next morning for 6 minutes just an hour and half before the Dar es
Salaam truck exploded. The calls were made by the light-skinned Egyptian
man al Qaeda had recruited to be the suicide truck driver, Ahmed Awad,
known to the group as "Ahmed the German."
Chernoff said Ghailani passed on the phone as a "gift" to the driver.
The prosecutor said, "After that, the East Africa cell's mission was
complete."..." Full text
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/08/national/main7035273.shtml
"... [A] run of the mill Taliban is not a war criminal. It's an enemy
combatant. The Geneva Conventions apply to run of the mill POWs.
Not applying the Geneva Convention is unlawful, it's a breach of
treaty."
Enemy combatants are exempt them from the
provisions of the Geneva Conventions.
"...[I]t's not "hey, the guy's a terrorist, let's waive his right to a
fair trial!"."
Who waived his right to a fair trial?
We must protect intelligence and our methods of operation.
"These trials are not due process. Due process is the very foundation of
this nation's justice system. Take due process away and the tribunal
becomes a mockery of a court."
They could always stop
attempting to kill us.
"...The American domestic criminal system was designed primarily to
protect liberties while effectively prosecuting those responsible for
murder and other domestic crimes. The system was never intended or
designed to perform the judicial roles related to terror war or for that
matter to prevent fundamentalist terrorism. The creation of military
commission is thus an effort by the Bush administration to provide a
method for trying non-citizen terrorists that corresponds to the shift
from fighting terrorism with conventional law enforcement to serious
foreign military engagement..." Sofaer, Abraham D., and Paul R.
Williams. "Doing Justice During Wartime: Why military tribunals make
sense." Policy Review 111 (2002): 3. MasterFILE Premier. EBSCO. Web. 18
Nov. 2010.
Folly-schmooly...keep on keepin' on...
:
"...[C]ivilian trials
remain an option...(Robert Gibbs)."
Obama Administration Defends Civilian Trial For Gitmo Cases
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "When someone declares we
can't leave justice up to a panel of ordinary citizens, odds are you'll
find somewhere in the background. (we need a swastika smiley to balance
that one out, um?)"
Federal court is not designed for enemy combatants
who commit acts of war.
Would like to fill our courts with every Mohammad, Akhmed, and Abdul
around? Would you like to give them a world stage? Do you believe
America is incompetent to try enemy combatants? Would you prefer them
being tried in a world court?
Are you willing to call them Islamic terrorists?
[Would you like to give enemy combatants a world stage? Do you believe
America is incompetent to try enemy combatants?] "Why can't we put them
on trial legally?"
They can be tried in a military court. Do
you think we should compromise our intelligence and methods of defense?
[Would you prefer them being tried in a world court?] "The world court
has been much more effective in dealing with terrorists...They have a
higher conviction rate (admittedly because they are more careful about
who they indict)..."
You'd tell the world that our military is incompetent,
wouldn't you? :Shimei:
What do you think of our military men and women? How
about American sovereignty? Do we have the right to our own boarders,
language and culture? What do you think of American exceptionalism?
Are you a one world government/one world religion kind of guy?
[Are
you willing to call them Islamic terrorists?] "In the same sense that the
guy who murders abortionists is a Christian terrorist."
Is Christianity true? Is Islam false? Jn 14:6.
In nations where Muslims dominate, are others not of their faith treated fairly?
Response to comment [from a Christian]: "...[C]onservatives at heart
despise the Constitution, as this issue shows."
I think you have that backward. The attack on America
comes from the Left:
[Smearing America in Defense of A Terrorist by Thomas Joscelyn] "In response to
the Ghailani verdict, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) issued the
following statement (emphasis added):
CCR questions the ability of anyone who is Muslim to receive a truly fair trial
in any American judicial forum post-9/11. Both the military commission system
and federal criminal trials have serious flaws. However, on balance the Ghailani
verdict shows that federal criminal trials are far superior to military
commissions for the simple yet fundamental reason that they prohibit evidence
obtained by torture. If anyone is unsatisfied with Ghailani's acquittal on 284
counts, they should blame the CIA agents who tortured him.
The first sentence of the statement is remarkable for its crude
anti-Americanism. How else can one read it? CCR is essentially claiming that
America is so religiously bigoted that it doubts whether "anyone one who is
Muslim" can "receive a truly fair trial." This is not just about military
commissions. CCR is denouncing the entire American legal system and, in fact,
America herself.
Why is this important? Well, CCR has organized much of the legal opposition to
America's counterterrorism policies..."
Full text
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Criminals are to be tried in
civilian courts. War criminals are tried in specific other courts, not military
tribunals."
Noncitizen terrorists may be tried by military tribunals.
Military tribunals are "...alternative[s] the United
States [has] used a few times in the 20th century. The first such case involved
eight Nazis who landed by submarine on beaches in New York and Florida in June
1942. The men had lived in the United States for years before returning to
Germany to accept the assignment of sabotaging military and civilian targets in
the United States. They were able to slip back into the country and don civilian
attire before their plot was discovered. President Roosevelt ordered that a
secret military commission try the eight saboteurs. Justice was swift: The
trial, convictions, appeals, and sentences were carried out within two months.
The Supreme Court unanimously affirmed Roosevelt's use of the military tribunal
and turned down the Germans' appeals. Six were executed, one was sentenced to
life in prison, and another received 30 years. Another precedent-setting--and
more controversial--case was the 1946 trial of Tomoyuki Yamashita, a Japanese
general who was charged with ruthless assaults on thousands of Filipino
civilians. Supreme Allied Commander Douglas MacArthur appointed six U.S.
military lawyers to handle Yamashita's defense. One of the lawyers assigned to
Yamashita charged that prosecutors gave the defense inadequate time to prepare
its case. But despite an impassioned dissenting opinion by two Justices, the
Supreme Court again upheld the proceedings, and Yamashita was hanged. Former
Deputy Solicitor General Philip A. Lacovara, now a partner with the firm Mayer,
Brown & Platt, is one of the legal thinkers who support using a military
tribunal in the current situation..." Jacobson, Louis, and Gia Fenoglio. "How
Would They Be Tried?." National Journal 33.43 (2001): 3350. MasterFILE Premier.
EBSCO. Web. 19 Nov. 2010.
[Thoughts on military members] "You
would aren't fit to polish their shoes..."
[Do we
have the right to our own boarders?] "If your local zoning permits it."
You do not believe in American sovereignty?
[Language] "There is no official American language."
Should English be the official language in the U.S.?
[Culture?] "That would be... Cajun? Southern? Native American? Urban? Turns out
that there's no official American culture, either."
What do think of what Dennis Prager calls the "American
trinity"? "Found on any coin in your pocket: 'In God we Trust', Liberty,
and E pluribus unum, Latin for 'out of many, one'"? Are these American
values?
[What
do you think of American exceptionalism?] "Show me your evidence for it." [Are
you willing to call the enemy Islamic terrorists?] "In the same sense that the
guy who murders abortionists is a Christian terrorist." [Is Christianity true?
Is Islam false?] "Being right is not license to be a terrorist..."
Is Christianity true? Are all other religions false?
Jn 14:6.
[In
nations where Muslims dominate, are others not of their faith treated fairly?]
"...[I]n some places where Christians predominate, they don't treat others so
well...I think your moral compass needs a little work."
Has Christianity had a positive effect on the world?
Response to comment [from a Christian]: "These criminals are petty
criminals...Knocking down a couple buildings is not going to end the
US...Thankfully, Obama hasn't drunk the rightwing fear koolaid."
Do you see terrorists as enemies of the United States?
[Ghailani Verdict A Miscarriage of Justice by Thomas Joscelyn]
"1. Ghailani and another al Qaeda operative "purchased the used refrigeration
truck converted to a weapon of mass destruction in Tanzania."
2. "Ghailani then obtained some of the oxygen and flammable acetylene gas tanks
joined to the TNT to enhance the explosion."
3. "Ghailani also stored electric detonators - one and a half inch, aluminum
coated, PETN charged blasting caps -- in the armoire of his Dar es Salaam house.
The FBI found one, along with clothing tainted with TNT residue."
4. Ghailani gave the suicide bomber who blew himself up in Tanzania the cell
phone he used in plotting the attack. The suicide bomber made calls from this
phone both the night before, and the morning of, the attack.
5. The government produced "numerous witnesses" who "placed Ghailani in 1998 in
the company of known al Qaeda operatives and embassy bombers, at [a] ‘safe
house' in coastal Mombasa, Kenya, at the house Ghailani shared in Dar es Salaam,
and riding in utility vehicles the conspirators used to ferry supplies to their
bomb making locations."
CBS News explains that two of the men "seen with Ghailani" have already been
convicted for their role in the embassy bombings and are "serving life
sentences."
6. "Ghailani fled Tanzania using a fake name and passport the day before the
bombings" and "three senior al Qaeda leaders involved with the East Africa's
cell were on Ghailani's flight to Karachi, Pakistan."
Full text
"Yes indeedido -- a petty criminal we caught..."
Arms and legs were scattered around the scene,
eyewitnesses said. Would you tell the families of the 12 Americans
murdered that this crime was "petty"?
"The real enemy of America is conservatives like you who want to abandon our
values..."
We do not share the same values (Jn 10:10).
Response to comment [from a Christian]: "Yep, a petty criminal who
murdered some people."
Murder is not petty (Ex 20:13). Terrorism must be
acknowledged to be defeated. What did Sun Tzu call step one in war? Know
your enemy.
"Man-caused disaster"..."overseas contingency
operation"...
"Grow up -- the only threat to our country is from people like you who will
ignore our Constitution..."
How helpful is a Constitution when wicked men call it
"living and breathing" (
dead).
"...because you are so insecure and have no confidence in America."
Do you mean the freak show that Obama calls America? "We
are the ones we have been waiting for (Obama)."
Would you marry a person who wants to fundamentally change you? "I love you
darling. I just want to fundamentally change everything about you."
"Why do you hate America so much?"
You and I differ on our definitions of
Americanism/
Amerikanism, Greenrage (Ps 2:1).
"The left stands for: secularism, equality and
multiculturalism. The right stands for (The American Trinity: found on any coin
in your pocket): 'In God we Trust', Liberty and E pluribus unum, Latin for 'out
of many, one' (Prager)."
[Justice Was Not Done by Andrew C. McCarthy] "...[T]he
blunt fact is that justice was not done, as Attorney General Eric Holder boldly
promised it would be. This case did not belong in the civilian justice
system...Even if the jury had convicted on all the counts, honest observers
would still have had to concede that using the civilian court significantly
complicated the government's ability to convict a terrorist responsible for
killing hundreds of people.
Given that military commissions, a firmly rooted method for handling war crimes,
have been approved by Congress and acknowledged as legitimate by the Obama
administration, it was reckless to run these risks just to make a political
point about the effectiveness of civilian justice -- and, no doubt, to try to
lay the ground work for a civilian trial of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and the 9/11
plotters..."
Full text
[Holder’s Sham Trial by Thomas Joscelyn] "Ghailani was properly held at
Guantánamo under the laws of war. The Obama administration did not need to try
him in any venue. It is perfectly legal for the United States to hold Ghailani
as an enemy combatant. In fact, the Obama administration itself has concluded
that around 50 Guantánamo detainees will be held indefinitely without trial.
America does not need a verdict from a New York jury-and a mixed verdict at
that-to justify Ghailani's continued detention..."
Full text
Travesty of Justice:
Military Tribunal or Federal Court