Who was Jesus?
Response to
comment [from a
"Christian"]:
"The biblical,
historical,
orthodox view is
that Jesus is
God Almighty,
YHWH. He is not
a created being.
He is the
God-Man, one
person with two
natures after
the incarnation,
but uncreated,
eternal Creator
before creation.
He is fully
God/Deity, but
He is not the
Father. Father,
Son, Holy Spirit
are co-equal,
co-essential,
co-eternal.
He is not a mere
mode of a
solitary being (modalism/Oneness).
He is not
created (Arianism).
He is not just a
prophet (Islam).
He is not one of
many gods
(Mormonism). He
is not a
Christ-spirit/consciousness
(New Age, etc.).
John 1:1[.]"
If he does not
change modes,
why do you
believe he could
or would have
sinned?
SD: “ Could he [jesus]
have sinned?
Godrulz: “I
believe He could
have, but did
not…”
link
Our God is holy
(Ps 99:9, Is
5:16). He does
not change (Mal
3:6).
What meaning do
you pour into
"God-Man"?
Explain God's
nature (Jn 1:1,
Heb 4:15).
We are
sinners by birth
and by practice
(Ps 51:5). Jesus
was not/is not.
Christ died
for the
ungodly (Ro
5:6).
See:
Jesus Is God's
Answer to Man's
Disability
by Adrian Rogers
Godrulz
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "Christians are weird."
Your point?
1 Ch 29:15
"[Y]ou have elevate a man to the
level of deity . . . that's . . .
"
If Christ is not risen, then you are right. Jn 1:1
For if
the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins [1 Cor.
15:16–17].
If Christ is not raised, then, my friend, you are a lost, hell–doomed sinner,
and that is all you can ever be. If Christ be not raised, every one of us is
still in our sins.
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished [1 Cor. 15:18].
There have been millions upon millions of believers who have died trusting
Christ as their Savior. If Christ is not risen, then every one of them has
perished.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable
[1 Cor. 15:19].
May I say to you that I think Christianity is a here–and–now religion. Paul
makes that clear in the sixth chapter of Romans. But Christianity is also a
hereafter religion. If Christ be not raised, we have been deluded and we are
about the most miserable people in this world today. But we’re not! We’re
rejoicing!
That is the end of Paul’s “ifs.” Will you face up to the possibilities which he
presents? Go through the “ifs” logically and you will see that the human family
is lost and hopeless if Christ had not been raised from the dead.
McGee, J. V. (1991). Vol. 44: Thru the Bible commentary: The Epistles (1
Corinthians) (electronic ed.) (180–181). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
"White noise . . ."
1 Cor 1:18, 2:14, 2 Thess 2:10
Response to comment [from a "Christian"]: "For those confused, the topic was "who was Jesus" not what do you think about other peoples answers."
We discuss worldviews here. Do you wish
to silence the critic?
See:
What's Your Worldview?
A few housekeeping items:
As a reminder, instant e-mail notification is inop. Ongoing dialogues are less
likely with the new format. I view 'new posts' and respond to the current
goings-on.
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "He [Jesus] was an apocalyptic "prophet"..."
Jesus came to die for the sins of the world (Ro 5:17-19, Isa 25:1 NIV).
"...[S]o
says one of the "believers" out there who spends most of his time
."
I do not play the drums (Jn
3:19-21).
"The doctrine of God/Christology, we agree on..."
Your
Jesus is not the Jesus of scripture (Jn
1:1,
Heb 4:15).
"All of the Gnostics in the early church propounded the
first heresy that He emptied Himself of His deity..." Full text:
Phil 2:7 J. Vernon McGee
Understand the spirit of antichrist (1
Jn 4:2-6).
See:
The Jesus test, the gospel test, and the fruit test
"The debate about hamartiology/impeccability of Christ, we disagree about. The former is salvific, the latter is not."
Christ died
for our sins and rose again (1
Cor 15:3). Jesus' sinlessness is essential
Christian doctrine (Heb
4:15).
"…[T]here must be added to those conditions the inner and always unforced "yes"
or "no" by which the person responds to the situation..."
Full text
Sin entered into the world by Adam (Ge
3:6,7;
Ro 5:12). All men are
conceived and born in sin (Ge
5:3;
Job 15:14;
25:4;
Ps 51:5). All men are
shaped in sin (Ps
51:5). Scripture concludes all under sin (Ga
3:22). No man is without sin (1
Ki 8:46;
Ec 7:20). Christ alone
was without sin (2
Co 5:21;
Heb 4:15;
7:26;
1 Jn 3:5).
See:
Could Jesus have sinned (peccability or impeccability)? If Jesus could not have
sinned, what was the point of the temptation?
Godrulz
Response to comment [from an atheist]: [Christians are weird]
Response to comment [from a "Christian"]: "[S]erpentdove: I never said He emptied Himself of His Deity..."
I
said you are an antichrist (Ga
5:9). I didn't say you were stupid
(Eph
4:14).
See:
Godrulz
A few housekeeping items:
As a reminder, instant e-mail notification is inop. If you link to another
member's post as seen in hybrid mode when replying to me, it is unlikely that I
will see your post. If you'd like a response from me (and some don't
)
please reply within one day if possible and link to my comment. I generally
check for replies to the last few posts within that day.
"...Jn. 1 clearly shows He is eternal God, not mere man..."
SD: “ Could he
[jesus] have sinned?
Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…”
link
Can God violate the law that he wrote?
Jn 1:1,
Deut 10:4. Can God deny
himself?
2 Ti 2:13
See:
Godrulz
"Sin is lawlessness..."
SD: “ Could he
[jesus] have sinned?
Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…”
link
Would God break the law that he made? Jn 1:1, Deut 10:4, 2 Ti 2:13
"Sin is not metaphysical, genetic, substance, being, nature, etc..."
Do you reject
the doctrine of imputed sin?
Ro 5:12
See:
Godrulz
"Sin is not a thing that can be imputed."
There's really no need for Jesus at all in your theology.
An imperfect god would have no business telling us to be perfect. Your god is
not: holy, perfect and righteous so he can do nothing for us.
SD: “ Could he [jesus] have sinned?
Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…”
link
See:
What
is the definition of sin? What is the difference between imputed sin, inherited
sin, and personal sin?
What
is sin? What is the biblical definition of sin?
Why does Christ's righteousness need to be imputed to us? What is imputation?
Why, on the basis of Christ's death, can God declare us to be righteous?
Acknowledging Sin and Law: The True Gospel...
"You are supporting Catholic tradition..."
Red Herring
Eph 4:14
I reject Catholicism (Jud
11). Do you reject the doctrine of depravity?
Explain why man is the way he is.
See:
Godrulz
"...Jesus is God. He is holy, perfect, righteous...We...need a sinless Saviour..."
SD: “ Could he
[jesus] have sinned?
Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…”
link
"...Man is a condemned sinner, a rebel by choice (not birth)...You wrongly think it is something to do with birth..."
You'll need Ro 5:12 to go away.
"...Calvinistic..."
Red Herring
I reject John Calvin.
"...[A] Darwinian idea..."
Red Herring Eph 4:14
I reject Charles Darwin.
"Total depravity is not total inability."
Would you have
done better in the garden than Adam? He had no sin nature (Ge 3:7).
[Total depravity - is it biblical?]
"Question: "Total depravity - is it biblical?"
Answer: Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the
Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the
acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five
points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total
depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people
prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical
corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name
assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the
Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name
you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this
important subject.
While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement
that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every
part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In
other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we
do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by
sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah
64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners
by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad
tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree
produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).
The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is
“deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9), and the thoughts of his
heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man
is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5).
The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions”
(Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so
that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John
3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore,
men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to
willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle
seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as
foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it
does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans
8:7).
The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He
begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.”
Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by
his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people
are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise
to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet
what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s
sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the
importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying
instead of rebelling, etc.
Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament
in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that 1—no one is
without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their
speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and 6—above
all, they have no fear of God. So, when one considers even these few verses, it
becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally
depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).
There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does
not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that
man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean
that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a
human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean
that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What
the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the
“good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the
glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man
looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only
the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because
they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done
for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In
other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God
but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God
declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”
Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so
that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian?
The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is
able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the
grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin
that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in
faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some
Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal
grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose
or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and
sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first
be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God
infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.”
Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men
are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of
man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).
However, even when the doctrine of total depravity is properly understood, many
people will reject the doctrine, but that fact should not surprise us, since the
world generally thinks of man as being basically good. Therefore, the idea that
man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious,
psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact
is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart, and the root
cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but his wicked and
selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy
the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of
salvation and will recognize that God’s sovereign grace is man’s only hope.
While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man’s self-righteousness and any
misconceptions about man’s ability to be saved through his own free will, it
leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew
19:25-26: “Then who can be saved?” Of course the answer remains the same: “With
people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew
19:25-26).
As the first of the five doctrines of what is called “Calvinism,” the doctrine
of total depravity correctly focuses man’s attention on the rest of these
“doctrines of grace” which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of
sinners."
Total
depravity - is it biblical?
See:
Godrulz
"...[Y]our view is Calvinistic..."
Red Herring
I reject John Calvin.
"I gave you an exposition of Rom. 5:12..."
"...(1) We are sinners because we commit acts of sin. Also, (2) we’re sinners by nature (sin doesn’t make us sinners, but we sin because we have that nature). (3) We are in the state of sin. God has declared the entire human family under sin. (4) Finally, you and I are also sinners by imputation. That is, Adam acted for the human race because he was the head of it..." Full text: Ro 5:12 J. Vernon McGee
"...Using your logic...then the one who disagrees with you is cutting the verse out of the Bible (even if they are right?)."
Adam's sin was imputed to us.
"If you disagree on an interpretation/application..."
"Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..."
Full text:
How to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson
See:
Hermeneutics
"Newsflash: You are not infallible."
Red Herring
"...Kids should not play on adult theology discussion forums."
Ad hominem
Who was Jesus?