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Response to comment [from a Christian]: "...here is a patriarchal, oppressive economic arrangement.

Doug Giles would say this is the product of education by a "long tooth lesbian Marxist professor..."

Response to comment [from a Jew]: "[Y]ou really want us to go back to the time when women weren't allowed to be anything but housewives, or schoolteachers,nurses and secretaries?"

When decent men are not found, women step up to lead. It is the state of a godless nation when you get a Jezebel to lead (1 Kin. 18:4, 13).

Yes, women's liberation has done so much for the family--sexual freedom, more murder of unborn children, easy divorce, etc. You've come a long way baby.

I agree with you. The women's liberation movement did more harm than good. It revolves around sexual sin--women gave up much for the right to be used by men.

Response to comment [from an atheist]: "It did a lot more than that--it pretty much destroyed the illusion of "gender role" that sustained the archaic institutions that dominated patriarchal societies. Whether you like it or not, there's no going back to the way society used to be."

You must have gone to college to believe that gender roles are an illusion (Prager). God made it clear (repeating for those who cannot figure it out): "And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them (Ge 1:27).

Clearly college teaches one not to think. People learn to override common sense.

Men must act like men and women must act like women (Deut 22:5). The sexes have different functions (1 Tim. 2:8–15). It is not an insult to women. It is God's order.

Response to comment [from other]: "Even though I disagree with the concept of sin, why would you expect any wife to just humbly agree with her husband in a situation where she clearly believes he is wrong?"

Ellen G. White said: “Eve was created from a rib taken from the side of Adam, signifying that she was not to control him as the head, nor to be trampled under his feet as an inferior, but to stand by his side as an equal, to be loved and protected by him.”

Husbands and wives disagree all of the time. Finally, when a decision must be made, it is the man who should have the final say. This does not take anything away from his wife. It is simply the order that God has created. If men and women are not in rebellion against God, this is not a problem. The trinity has an order as well: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One is not superior to the other.

"The husband and wife's role should be to compromise and consider each others thoughts and feelings rather than disregarding them."

Who is talking about disregarding thoughts and feelings? A husband should love his wife as Jesus loved the church--sacrificially (Eph 5:25).

Response to comment [from other]: "This has nothing to do with what I posted. I was speaking of a marital relationship where husband and wife work as partners ...not a religious relationship."

Most of the harm comes from indoctrination by professors in the liberal arts departments in colleges (Prager).

Response to comment [from a Christian]: [Common sense] "Just how common are wiccans? How can a wiccan call for common sense when wiccans are not all that common."

To be used? Bob Enyart asked which is worse--Muslims, who cover their women in a dehumanizing manner or Hollywood who unclothes them and puts cameras all over them?

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "What is important is the woman's right to choose, not how she uses that right. How about allowing a woman the responsibility and right of choosing how she lives and what she does with her own body?"

Should we allow people to come into your home to murder you? Neither should we allow a murderer into the womb. The baby is a unique individual. He has his own blood type, his own unique DNA, his or her own sex. He is in the womb sucking his thumb--already falling in love with his mother.

The exceeding sinfulness of sexual sin is seen when a mother will kill her own child--the most sacred bond. If she is willing to commit this crime, she must be stopped. Women who have had abortions always regret their decision. They know they have murdered (1 Jn 3:20). They can be forgiven in Christ. But the decision burdens them like no other. This is what women fought for?

This--"It's my body; my right." It's not your body. And it's not your right. God is the giver of life. Only he can rightfully take it.

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "As it happens I agree with you. However--you can't make someone value life. Particularly life that is for all practical purposes invisible. Abortion will end when people want it to end, not when people try to make it happen by force."

I agree with you that we must persuade women to keep their babies. The best way to do that is to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. But when women's hearts are not persuaded, we do not stand idly by while their babies are murdered.

All women regret having abortions. They realize this afterward when their heart is unable to believe the liberal lie--that the baby was a mass of tissue. Mary was with child not a mass of tissue (Lk 2:5).

"...but adequate counseling and proper information beforehand would be a very good tool for dissuading people who might feel overwhelmed at the prospect of parenthood. Of course, access to help wouldn't hurt either."

Christians have provided help (e.g. Alternatives Pregnancy Center, Crisis Pregnancy Center, etc.). These organizations arose after the consequences of the women's liberation movement. The current "crisis" of course comes comes from listening to liberals in the first place--allowing for no consequences for sexual sin (e.g. fornication, easy divorce, trouble free abortion).

After the recent conservative protests, did you know that the conservatives cleaned up after themselves? In contrast, their liberal counterparts do not clean up after themselves when they protest. Conservatives are constantly having to clean up after liberal's messes. We just won't let them scrap out the womb--cleaning up their messes the way they'd like to.

I thought liberals were pro-choice. Why not give mothers all information (e.g. sonograms) to begin falling in love with their babies? Liberals fight against this. They'd be out the $300 bucks a pop to abort the baby.

You can't take away someone's life. It is not their body. It is someone else's body--it is an innocent baby. "Speak out for the one who cannot speak (Prov. 31:8, GWT)."

"If you want to start down that path how long is it before women must report all pregnancies to the government and follow strict guidelines like brood cows to ensure maximum safety for the unborn citizen."

When a woman is pregnant we do not ask, "Is your fetus kicking much today?" We know it is a baby.

It is government's job to enforce the laws and protect its citizens. That is why the police will show up when someone comes into your house and tries to murder you.

[God is the giver of life. Only he can rightfully take it.] "That's an absurd position."

"You can't deny people rights over their own bodies and own lives on religious grounds. You just can't."

You must believe that you are compassionate. You are a murderer (Mt 5:22). Why don't you apply for a job for the mafia.

[We do not stand idly by while their babies are murdered.] "How do you suggest stopping them?"

[All women regret having abortions.] "No, they don't. Many, perhaps most, have some kind of regret."

[Alternatives Pregnancy Center, Crisis Pregnancy Center...These organizations arose after the consequences of the women's liberation movement.] "They arose as part of the women's liberation movement."

These are Christian organizations. They do not promote the free-love hippie mentality. They do not promote it because they see first hand the destruction that sexual sin causes.

[Sonogram] "Not all liberals are pro-choice. Certainly most liberals are for good, solid information."

"And the idea that $300 dollars to abort a baby is a the drive behind the pro-choice movement is just stupid."

I am saying that the mother has rights (given by God) and the baby has rights (given by God). If the mother wishes to become a murderer (rebellion against God); then she does not have that right. Her rights stop where God declares not where she declares.

A man and woman were sent to jail because she asked him to kick her stomach until the baby inside her died.

A woman should not smoke or drink during pregnancy. If she does, she and the baby suffer natural consequences (e.g. fetal alcohol syndrome, low birth weight). People suffer natural consequences from other people's sin everyday. God will judge every injustice.

"Can you force those kinds of restrictions on another human being just because they happen to be a pregnant woman? The idea is absurd on the face of it."

"I am asking you how far you think we can go in legislating a pregnant woman's behavior."

Do not murder (Ex 20:13). If you murder--the death penalty (biblical justice [Ge 9:5,6; Ex 21:12; Nu 35:16]).

Once they are born--a birth certificate. Prior to birth--a personhood law. A fertilized egg is a human being.

"I am asking you how you think that protection can be established without violating the freedom of the mother."

Allowing a child to be born is not violating the freedom of the mother. When did freedom become "I have the right to murder."

How do you protect a child? First, don't murder him. Second, establish personhood laws so that anyone who would murder him (e.g. kicking in a woman's stomach) would be prosecuted.

Response to comment [from Christian]: "How about recognizing that Feminism and Homosexuals promote and support a culture of sexual promiscuity that, in the end hurts them immediately, and kills the whole once successful society by destroying the next generation of father-less children raised in broken families?"

That's right. Satan has no raw materials. He takes good things that God gave (e.g. marriage, family, sex) and perverts or undermines them.

Women have learned through the women's liberation movement that they have no value unless they act like a man (Enyart). Some women still appreciate their femininity and role as wife and mother. They should not believe the lie that it is desirable to be what the world asks of them. What the world values and what God values is quite different. Godly women are rare indeed (Pr 31).

Response to comment [from other]: "It should also be illegal to stigmatize the mothers of these babies based on people such as yourself believe is sexual misconduct."

"While we are at it, make it illegal for men to walk away from their obligations as a father."

"Where is all the stigmatization of those fathers who encourage and demand the mother's of their unborn child to abort?"

They should be stigmatized. Whoremongers destroy women and children. They will have their place in the lake of fire (Re 21:8).

"If you cannot support a woman in a crisis pregnancy without telling her she made a mistake [sin] and accusing her of being a slut [fornication, marital unplanned pregnancy, rape] then you need to just shut up and go away."

Who called the pregnant woman a slut? Christian organizations are concerned that the baby is born, then they help to care for both mom and baby. They are doing the job that fathers should be doing.

"You are basing your argument on religion and expect nonreligious people to accept it."

"The reason an unborn child should have rights is because being born is a right that every other living human being on this planet has taken and should feel morally obligated to give back."

What if others do not feel morally obligated to ensure an unborn child's right to live? What if they outnumber you and overpower you?

If rights come from man then any man's opinion is just as valid as any other man's opinion. Rights come from God.

"Family members and those who are supposedly interested in protecting the unborn child should be just as interested in the mother receiving the same type of treatment as her child. This means not aggravating her with negativity, stigmatizing or any type of aggression."

Government does not function to pay for the care of children. That is what family and churches are for. Christians do not bow to the god of feelings. They deal with difficulties caused by sexual sin.

"[S]o many people state they are prolife and concerned about welfare of the baby and in the next breath believe they can wag their finger at them with the hopes of making them feel guilt until the unborn child is born."

"While I would vote for a personhood law and vote to make abortion illegal, you are still not addressing the bigger issue: women and teens in crisis pregnancy who need to be surrounded by support rather than negativity."

I agree. Teens and older women need help from their family and their church. Christians work to share the gospel of Jesus Christ and support mothers in need.

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "Balderdash. Women have learned that they have value apart from that which is "given" to them by men. They have learned that they have choices in this life, just like a man does."

Men have the final say in family decision making--and for good reason--women are frequently:

Fond of self-indulgence. Isa 32:9-11.

Subtle and deceitful. Pr 7:10; Ec 7:26.

Silly and easily led into error. 2Ti 3:6.

Zealous in promoting superstition and idolatry. Jer 7:18; Eze 13:17,23.

Active in instigating to iniquity. Nu 31:15,16; 1Ki 21:25; Ne 13:26.

"One has to wonder why a few of the men in this thread are so insecure about women valuing themselves and having control over their own lives."

God has given an order (1Co 11:3). If men reject God, they naturally reject his order.

Response to a comment [from a Christian]: "An abortionist would argue that what he is doing isn't murder and that an embryo isn't a baby. These are the issues that need to be focused on rather than laws that have no teeth."

If you are willing to murder a baby, you are willing to lie.

[Hippies] "They are representative of a wider movement in reproductive responsibility and safety that sprang from women demanding control over their own bodies and reproductive options."

This means sexual sin justified because you are your own god.

"The 'crisis' is ongoing from the beginning of history."

Every man born after the fall of Adam is born in sin (Ps 51:5). Only by being born of the spirit of God are we able to be saved from the consequences of sin.

"So do you want actual information or not? You just said that information would help prevent abortion, now suddenly even that isn't good enough. Move the goalposts much?"

No law should end with "...and then you can kill the baby."

See:

AndThenYouCanKillTheBaby.com

"God's will isn't something a secular government is in a position to do."

Christ is over all things whether good or bad (Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10).

America was founded as a Judeo-Christian nation. About 50 years ago we asked God to leave our country. We sow to the flesh so we will reap to the flesh--50 million dead--a harvest is coming.

"[W]here should government come down on issues like seat belts, or a nutritious diet?"

Historically, it is the left that has attempted to control food and diets. Michelle Obama just opened a farmer's market today. The White House says it is to "help achieve a healthier workforce." Hitler did the same.

Recommended reading:

Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change by Jonah Goldberg

Seatbelts are not mentioned in scripture but we can apply biblical principals to modern times. It is a good idea to wear a seatbelt. God promotes all that leads to live and good living (Jn 10:10). If a person chooses not to wear a seatbelt, he may suffers the natural consequence which is death.

We are free to eat any food:

Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man [Mark 7:18–20].

"Let’s really take a look at what does come out of man..."

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

All these evil things come from within, and defile the man [Mark 7:21–23].

"...I’ll guarantee you that if you will buy the morning paper wherever you live and will read it through, you will find that this is what came out of man during the last twenty-four hours:

Evil thoughts

Adulteries and fornications—unlawful sex relations

Murders (anger is also murder)

Thefts (loafing on the job is also stealing)

Covetousness—grasping and greediness for material things and positions

Wickedness—all the acts that are intended to hurt people

Deceit—the pretense that people put up

Lasciviousness—sensuality

Evil eye—envy

Blasphemy—slander against God or man

Pride (God hates this above all else)

Foolishness—acts done without any respect of God or man

These all come out of the heart of man and that is why the Lord Jesus says, “Ye must be born again.”"

McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (4:191-192). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[A woman should not smoke or drink during pregnancy.] "Obviously. Does that translate into a government mandate to protect the rights of the unborn child?"

There will be natural consequences when a woman drinks when she is pregnant. Unfortunately, innocent people are harmed due to the sins of others.

The Bible does not mention smoking but it has much to say about drunkenness:

1. Forbidden. Eph 5:18.

2. Caution against. Lu 21:34.

3. Is a work of the flesh. Ga 5:21.

4. Is debasing. Isa 28:8.

5. Is inflaming. Isa 5:11.

6. Overcharges the heart. Lu 21:34.

7. Takes away the heart. Ho 4:11.

8. Leads to

a. Poverty. Pr 21:17; 23:21.

b. Strife. Pr 23:29,30.

c. Woe and sorrow. Pr 23:29,30.

d. Error. Isa 28:7.

e. Contempt of God’s works. Isa 5:12.

f. Scorning. Ho 7:5.

g. Rioting and wantonness. Ro 13:13.

9. The wicked addicted to. Da 5:1-4.

10. False teachers often addicted to. Isa 56:12.

11. Folly of yielding to. Pr 20:1.

12. Avoid those given to. Pr 23:20; 1Co 5:11.

13. Denunciations against

a. Those given to. Isa 5:11,12; 28:1-3.

b. Those who encourage. Hab 2:15.

14. Excludes from heaven. 1Co 6:10; Ga 5:21.

15. Punishment of. De 21:20; Joe 1:5,6; Am 6:6,7; Mt 24:49-51.

16. Exemplified

a. Noah. Ge 9:21.

b. Nabal. 1Sa 25:36.

c. Uriah. 2Sa 11:13.

d. Elah. 1Ki 16:9,10.

e. Benhadad. 1Ki 20:16.

f. Belshazzar. Da 5:4.

g. Corinthians. 1Co 11:21.

See:

What is the Christian view of smoking? Is smoking a sin?

What does the Bible say about drinking alcohol / wine? Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol / wine? Does the Bible say anything about beer?

What does the Bible say about doing drugs? Is it a sin to do drugs? Didn't God give us plants / herbs for our use?

Is gluttony a sin? What does the Bible say about overeating? Why is the sin of gluttony so often ignored by Christians?

"I'm seeing here that you don't think the government can prevent a mother from doing things that might injure her child. Am I right?"

The government is to impose punishment for crimes committed against others (e.g. murder, rape, kidnapping, homosexuality, fornication, etc.).

"Forcing a woman to become a mother against her will could be seen as a violation of her freedom. When did freedom become 'You will do what I say whether you like it or not?'"

We are God's creation. Therefore, we are responsible to him. God does have the right to say this. The child is not to be put to death for the sins of his father (2 Ki 14:6).

"How can you establish personhood for someone whose existence is only known [by the] mother...? If she doesn't tell anyone (or doesn't know herself) how can you establish personhood? How can you establish that a crime has been committed if a 'person' for whom no records exist vanishes after a woman takes an abortificant? Until people agree with you on the definition of personhood, or on the value of unborn life more realistically, than you are wasting your time pursuing laws that will always be toothless."

I do not make law for society--God does. And God has said "“You shall not murder" (Ex 20:13). If a murder has occurred, God knows about it. It will be punished. It is not enough to say "I'm sorry." Restitution must be made (Acts 3:21; Rev. 21:1–5). God is just. He is love (pictured in the prophet Jeremiah) and he is wrath (pictured in the prophet Ezekiel). Every unholy thought and deed will be paid for.

Response to comment [from other]: "[Religion is a] convenient excuse for you to claim the right to judge another human being over an act of intimacy."

Christians are to judge and judge rightly (Pr 31:9). What you call "an act of intimacy" is often fornication. The only holy "act of intimacy" is within marriage. When people act outside of God's will and plan for their lives, it causes grief. When God says don't do it, he means don't hurt yourself. The women's liberation movement failed to tell women this.

"[B]eing that abortion is legal, it is up to those of us who are opposed to convince others (with logic and empathy) that the lives of the unborn are sacred and should be protected."

Moral law comes from God. We share the gospel of Jesus Christ with others. Getting the word of God out is superior to tactics of logic and empathy. The foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom (1 Cor 1:25). We must begin with God's word.

Because something is legal, it does not mean that it is right.

"Intentionally irritating someone over a moral decision that is legally permitted only alienates that person."

The word of God is truth (Da 10:21; Joh 17:17).

"That is your opinion and will not work with those outside of your religion."

Christians are not religious. All of the rest of the world is.

What works is giving out the gospel of Jesus Christ. Truth is not an opinion (Jn 14:6).

"[I]f you are a product of chance, your brain is also a product of chance. Therefore, the thought patterns that determine your logic are also products of chance. If your logic is the result of chance processes, you can’t be sure it evolved properly. You can’t be sure you’re even asking the right question because you can’t trust your own logic (Ken Ham)."

"So you would advocate that a young women with no family, religion or money go through a pregnancy without prenatal care, give birth in an alley and feed her newborn out of dumpsters?"

No, I would recommend that she seek assistance from her family and/or church. In every major city there is a Christian organization willing to help.

"Please tell me why anyone who does not believe as you do would seek aide from a congregation of stigmatizers?"

I do not know anyone in these organizations who would stigmatize a pregnant woman who is seeking help. Volunteers are there to help not hurt the new mother.

[Have you ever met a Christian?] "Being that I was raised by Christian parents, attended church three times a week as well as attending Christian School from 7th through 12th grade and married a Christian man, YES, I have met many."

Coming from a Christian family does not make a person a Christian. Attending church regularly does not make a person a Christian. Attending Christian schools does not make a person a Christian. Marrying a Christian does not make a person a Christian. Only trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior makes a person a Christian.

"You need to think about what it means to support mothers in need. Supporting includes empathizing and communicating with them in a positive manner. Stigmatizing and supporting can never go hand and hand. You need to decide which of these actions is more important and which action will bring about positive results."

What brings the most positive result is sharing the word of God (Ro 1:16).

Women's Lib Destroying the Family