Veneration of Relics
[Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries]"...It has now
been 495 years since Martin Luther sparked the Reformation by nailing 95
Theses against the selling of God's forgiveness on the door of the
Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany.
As I was preparing a message on the life of Martin Luther, my studies
led me to another ungodly tradition of the Roman church
which originated in paganism - the veneration of relics, bone fragments
and dead bodies. Among Catholicism's most highly venerated relics have
been pieces of the Cross of Jesus Christ. There are so many of these
pieces scattered throughout the world that, if gathered together, they
could be used to build a large ship. The Catholic Encyclopedia admits
that the validity of many relics are "doubtful", but fails to admit that
all of them are fakes. Based upon the church's dubious assertion of
artifact credibility: "many of the more ancient relics duly exhibited
for veneration in the great sanctuaries of Christendom or even at Rome
itself must now be pronounced to be either certainly spurious or open to
grave suspicion."
Venerating relics has not been an option for Catholics. The Council of
Trent commanded the veneration of dead bodies and condemned those who
did not believe in the authenticity of artifacts designated as relics by
the Catholic Church. "The holy bodies of holy martyrs... are to be
venerated by the faithful, for through these bodies many benefits are
bestowed by God on men." Since it was believed that "many benefits" come
through the bones of dead men, the sale of bodies and bones became big
business for the Church of Rome! According to the Catholic Encyclopedia,
when Pope Boniface IV converted the Pantheon into a church in the 7th
century, "twenty-eight cartloads of sacred bones were said to have been
removed from the Catacombs and placed in a basin beneath the high
altar."
As I learned more about these abominable traditions of Rome, I was moved
to a deeper compassion for those who have been deceived by religious
deception.
Only the truth of God's Word can set them free (John
8:31-32).
Those who know Scripture know that relics have no part in true worship,
for "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and
truth" (John
4:24)."
Response to comment [from an agnostic]: "If you had a real piece of that cross or a holy shroud in your possession what would you do with them?"
Bury it or burn it.
And Laban went
to shear his sheep: and Rachel had stolen the images that were her father’s
[Gen. 31:17–19].
"Here is a revelation of something that is quite interesting. Jacob rises up and
leaves posthaste again. You remember that this is the same way he left home when
he was escaping from his brother. Now he is leaving his uncle—but it is not all
his fault this time. It is obvious that he is prepared for this. He has all the
cattle and the servants ready to march.
“Rachel had stolen the images that were her father’s.” I told you that they were
in a home of idolatry. God didn’t want Jacob’s boys to be brought up there. But,
you see, Rachel had been brought up in a home of idolatry, and she wanted to
take her gods with her. What a primitive notion she had! Even Jacob had thought
that he could run away from God when he left his home as a boy. But at Bethel
God appeared to him. He found that he couldn’t run away from God. In fact many
years later David wrote: “Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I
flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my
bed in hell [sheol], behold, thou art there” (Ps. 139:7–8). That is, death won’t
separate you. “If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost
parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall
hold me” (Ps. 139:9–10). You won’t get away from God by even going to the moon.
You simply cannot get away from Him."
McGee, J. V. (1991). Vol. 2: Thru the Bible commentary: The Law (Genesis 16-33)
(electronic ed.) (161). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Idolatry
We should have no other gods (Exodus 20:3)
Do not be devoted to anyone or anything more than God (Deuteronomy 4:23)
Devote your heart to God (Joshua 24:14)
Look to God for your security (Judges 10:13–16)
We give in to idolatry when we forget God (Psalm 106:19–22)
God will not share his glory with anything else (Isaiah 42:8)
Christians cannot serve both God and the things of this world (Luke 16:13)
Tyndale House Publishers. (2007). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (3rd ed.).
Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.
Response to comment [from other]: "Do you remember Gilgal serpentdove?"
"Gilgal: The last station on the route of the Exodus west of the Jordan, where Joshua set up 12 stones to commemorate the crossing of the river (Josh. 4:19–20). Here, in the plain of Jericho, the Children of Israel were circumcised (Josh. 5:3). Eusebius (Onom. 46:18 ff.) stated that the site was rotated at a distance of 2 miles from Jericho. It is often mentioned by ancient pilgrims some of whom ‘saw the stone’. On the Medaba map the 12 stones are shown north of Jericho. According to Arculf (c. AD 680) a church was built above the stones. The latest mention of this church occurs at the beginning of the 12th century. The site has been identified with Khirbet el-Mefjer as well as with other sites in the region of Jericho." Negev, A. (1990). The Archaeological encyclopedia of the Holy Land (3rd ed.). New York: Prentice Hall Press.
Denounced for
idolatry (Hos. 9:15).
Hosea
"Prophetic—The Lord and the Faithless Nation Israel, Chapters 4–14
Israel Plays the Harlot, Chapters 4–5
Israel Guilty of Lawlessness, Immorality, Ignorance of God’s Word, and Idolatry,
Chapter 4
Israel Turns from God; God Turns from Israel; Deterioration within Follows,
Chapter 5
Israel (Ephraim) Will Return in the Last Days; Presently to Be Judged for
Current Sins, Chapter 6
Israel (Ephraim) Could Escape Judgment by Turning to God Who Loves Her (Key:
11:8), Chapters 7–12
Israel (Silly Dove) Turns to Egypt and Assyria, Chapter 7
Israel Turns to Golden Calves and Altars of Sin, Chapter 8
Israel (Backsliding Heifer) Turns to Land Productivity; Will Be Driven from
Land, Chapters 9–10
Israel Turns from God—Must Be Judged; God Will Not Give Up on Her, Chapters
11–12
Israel (Ephraim) Will Turn from Idols to God in Last Days, Chapters 13–14
Israel Will Be Judged in the Present, Chapter 13
Israel Will Be Saved in the Future, Chapter 14" McGee, J. V. (1991). Vol. 27:
Thru the Bible commentary: The Prophets (Hosea/Joel) (electronic ed.) (xxi).
Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
"Hos 9:5 — What will you do in the appointed day, and in the day of the feast
of the LORD?
Never mistake the Lord’s great patience for acceptance of evil. When we
knowingly step out of His will, He gives us chance after chance to turn back to
Him. But if we never turn back, that road will eventually end.
Hos 9:17 — My God will cast them away, because they did not obey Him...
A chronic case of disobedience may reveal not just a rebellious heart, but an
unbelieving one. The Hebrews who died in the wilderness wanderings refused to
obey “because of unbelief” (Heb. 3:19)." Stanley, C. F. (2005). The Charles F.
Stanley life principles Bible: New King James Version (Ho 9:5–17). Nashville,
TN: Nelson Bibles.
Response to comment [from an agnostic]: "I suppose the counter-argument is somewhere along these lines: that there would be less of a connection between Laban's idols and God than there would be between a piece of the cross and God."
God forbids
idolatry.
Why do you think Roman Catholics alter the Second Commandment?
See:
No Altering Commandments
"Idolatry — image-worship or divine honour paid to any
created object. Paul describes the origin of idolatry in
Rom. 1:21–25: men forsook
God, and sank into ignorance and moral corruption (1:28).
The forms of idolatry are,
(1.) Fetishism, or the worship of trees, rivers, hills, stones, etc.
(2.) Nature worship, the worship of the sun, moon, and stars, as the supposed
powers of nature.
(3.) Hero worship, the worship of deceased ancestors, or of heroes.
In Scripture, idolatry is regarded as of heathen origin, and as being imported
among the Hebrews through contact with heathen nations. The first allusion to
idolatry is in the account of Rachel stealing her father’s teraphim (Gen.
31:19), which were the relics of the worship of
other gods by Laban’s progenitors “on the other side of the river in old time” (Josh.
24:2). During their long residence in Egypt the
Hebrews fell into idolatry, and it was long before they were delivered from it (Josh.
24:14;
Ezek. 20:7). Many a token
of God’s displeasure fell upon them because of this sin.
The idolatry learned in Egypt was probably rooted out from among the people
during the forty years’ wanderings; but when the Jews entered Palestine, they
came into contact with the monuments and associations of the idolatry of the old
Canaanitish races, and showed a constant tendency to depart from the living God
and follow the idolatrous practices of those heathen nations. It was their great
national sin, which was only effectually rebuked by the Babylonian exile. That
exile finally purified the Jews of all idolatrous tendencies.
The first and second commandments are directed against idolatry of every form.
Individuals and communities were equally amenable to the rigorous code. The
individual offender was devoted to destruction (Ex.
22:20). His nearest relatives were not only
bound to denounce him and deliver him up to punishment (Deut.
13:2–10), but their hands were to strike the
first blow when, on the evidence of two witnesses at least, he was stoned (Deut.
17:2–7). To attempt to seduce others to false
worship was a crime of equal enormity (13:6–10). An idolatrous nation shared the
same fate. No facts are more strongly declared in the Old Testament than that
the extermination of the Canaanites was the punishment of their idolatry (Ex.
34:15,
16; Deut. 7; 12:29–31;
20:17), and that the calamities of the Israelites were due to the same cause (Jer.
2:17). “A city guilty of idolatry was looked
upon as a cancer in the state; it was considered to be in rebellion, and treated
according to the laws of war. Its inhabitants and all their cattle were put to
death.” Jehovah was the theocratic King of Israel, the civil Head of the
commonwealth, and therefore to an Israelite idolatry was a state offence (1
Sam. 15:23), high treason. On taking possession
of the land, the Jews were commanded to destroy all traces of every kind of the
existing idolatry of the Canaanites (Ex.
23:24,
32;
34:13;
Deut. 7:5,
25;
12:1–3).
In the New Testament the term idolatry is used to designate covetousness (Matt.
6:24;
Luke 16:13;
Col. 3:5;
Eph. 5:5)." Easton, M. G.
(1996). Easton’s Bible dictionary. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
Response to comment [from other]: "...[S]o you do remember (or at the least you know how to Google and copy/paste)..."
Yes.
"So were these stones relics in your opinion?"
Do you support
the veneration of relics?
See:
"...[I]t is slightly ironic that Y'shua also set up twelve pillars in his community, which Paul speaks about, Galatians 2:9..."
"Ga 2:9 James,
Cephas, and John. This James was Jesus’ half-brother (1:19), who had risen to a
prominent role in the Jerusalem church (see Introduction to James). Cephas
(Peter) and John (the brother of James the apostle, martyred in Acts 12:2), were
two of Christ’s closest companions and became the main apostles in the Jerusalem
church (see Acts 2–12). pillars. Emphasizing the role of James, Peter, and John
in establishing and supporting the church. grace … given to me. The only
conclusion these leaders could make was that God’s grace was responsible for the
powerful preaching of the gospel and the building of the church through Paul’s
efforts. Barnabas. See notes on v. 1; Acts 4:36. the right hand of fellowship.
In the Near East, this represented a solemn vow of friendship and a mark of
partnership. This act signified the apostles’ recognition of Paul as a teacher
of the true gospel and a partner in ministry. we should go to the Gentiles.
Further confirmation of Paul’s divine call to ministry and a blow to the
Judaizers, since the apostles directed him to continue in his already
flourishing ministry to the Gentiles. circumcised."
The MacArthur Study Bible. 1997 (J. MacArthur, Jr., Ed.) (electronic ed.) (Ga
2:9). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.
"...and commanded them to do things in remembrance (Eucharist, Luke 22:19)."
No one
commanded idolatry.
Worshipping the Eucharist is idolatry.
See:
No Sacrifice
As a reminder, jeremysdemo is
number 2 on Satan Inc. (TOL Heretics List)
in the The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd.
"[J]ust answer the question presented to you."
Tell us what
"other" means.
"...[W]e all want to know when given the opportunity if you will side with scripture or your own crusade against the RCC."
I side with the
authority of scripture.
So did Joshua.
See:
Jos 4:8-9
Reformation Time Line
"I'm not calling the Eucharist idolatry, are you?"
Worshipping the
Eucharist is idolatry.
See:
No Sacrifice
[As a reminder, jeremysdemo is
number 2 on Satan Inc. (TOL Heretics List)
in the The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd.] "...[N]ice attempt at an ad
hominem..."
Eph 5:11
[As a reminder, jeremysdemo is
number 2 on Satan Inc. (TOL Heretics List)
in the The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd.] "...[A]nother ad hominem..."
Eph 5:11
"...[I]nstead of answering the question, "So were these stones relics in your opinion?""
The stones were placed there as a remembrance.
"Lk 22:19 This is My body. I.e., it represented His body (cf. the words of 8:11, “The seed is the word of God”—and also v. 20). Such metaphorical language was a typical Hebraism. No eucharistic miracle of transubstantiation was implied, nor could the disciples have missed the symbolic intent of His statement, for His actual body—yet unbroken—was before their very eyes. See note on Matt. 26:26. do this. Thus He established the observance as an ordinance for worship (see notes on 1 Cor. 11:23–26). remembrance of Me. Passover had looked forward to the sacrifice of Christ; He transformed the seder into an altogether different ceremony, which looks back in remembrance at His atoning death...
Mt 26:26 Take, eat; this is My body. Jesus thus transformed the last Passover into the first observance of the Lord’s Supper. He is the central antitype in both ceremonies, being represented symbolically by both the paschal lamb of the Passover and the elements in the communion service. His statement, “this is My body” could not possibly have been taken in any literal sense by the disciples present that evening. See note on Luke 22:19." The MacArthur Study Bible. 1997 (J. MacArthur, Jr., Ed.) (electronic ed.) (Mt 26:26). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.
"...[D]oesn't surprise me."
It doesn't surprise me that you do not answer the question: What does "other" means?
"...[Y]ou seem to be obsessed with whoever is worshiping things they shouldn't..."
Ex 20:3-4
Keep shinin'
Re 22:11
Response to comment [from an agnostic]: "...[I]f they [Roman Catholics] would have left the commandment as is..."
Their religious
system collapses.
"You nullify the Word of God by your traditions that you have handed down (Mk
7:13)."
See:
Roman Catholic Traditions
Response to comment [from other]: [12 Stones] "...[A]nswer the question..."
If you worship
an object,
it becomes an idol.
"...Mary, the saints, and relics are objects for veneration, which is supposed
to be something less than worship—but practically it is difficult to see any
meaningful difference. Indeed, the word venerate originally meant “worship”—from
a Latin, rather than Anglo-Saxon root...." Full text:
Evangelicals and Catholics Together
And the people came up out of Jordan on the
tenth day of the first month, and encamped in Gilgal, in the east border of
Jericho.
And those twelve stones, which they took out of Jordan, did Joshua pitch in
Gilgal.
And he spake unto the children of Israel, saying, When your children shall ask
their fathers in time to come, saying, What mean these stones?
Then ye shall let your children know, saying, Israel came over this Jordan on
dry land [Josh.
4:19–22].
"If we carry the spiritual lesson out in this passage, our conclusion can only
be that we are to teach our children the gospel. The business of parents is to
give their children the gospel. There is no privilege like that of a parent
leading his child to a saving knowledge of Christ. My wife had the privilege of
leading our daughter to the Lord. This is the responsibility of parents.
For the LORD your God dried up the waters of Jordan from before you, until ye
were passed over, as the LORD your God did to the Red sea, which he dried up
from before us, until we were gone over..."
That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is
mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever [Josh. 23–24].
"What God did for the children of Israel He did for their benefit, your benefit,
and mine. He did it that all the people of the earth might know that the hand of
the Lord is indeed mighty. This purpose was graphically fulfilled as soon as the
Canaanites heard the news that the children of Israel had crossed over Jordan.
Some of the important things to remember in this chapter are that the ark goes
before and divides the Jordan River—not the rod of Moses. The ark goes before,
carried by priests. Christ goes before us through death but also goes with us
through this life. Jordan is typical of Christ’s death, not ours." McGee, J. V.
(1991). Vol. 10: Thru the Bible commentary: History of Israel (Joshua/Judges)
(electronic ed.) (33–34). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
"Jos
4:19-20. But this was no time for reflection.
Joshua led the people to Gilgal, their first encampment in Canaan, about two
miles from Jericho. There the 12 stones … taken out of the Jordan were set up,
perhaps in a small circle. The name Gilgal means “circle,” and may have been
taken from an ancient circle of stones of pagan significance. If so, the more
recent circle commemorating Yahweh’s great work would serve to counteract the
idolatrous association of the site.
Jos 4:21-23. The purpose
of the stones was clearly pedagogical: to remind Israel for generations to come
that it was God who brought them through the Jordan (cf. vv. 6-7) just as He had
taken their fathers through the Red Sea.
But how were the future generations to know what the stones meant? The answer is
clear. Parents were to teach God’s ways and works to their children (cf.
Deut. 6:4-7). A Jewish
father was not to send his inquisitive child to a Levite for answers to his
questions. The father was to answer them himself." Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B.,
& Dallas Theological Seminary. (1985). The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An
Exposition of the Scriptures (Jos
4:19–23). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
Also see:
A Walled City in Heaven? Grace to You Revelation 21
"...I just wanted to know if you considered the stones relics or not..."
You believe
Joshua was an idolater.
I do not.
"[N]o I don't...I never said whether or not I believe the stones to be relics, I asked you though."
Why did you
ask: " "Do you remember Gilgal serpentdove?"
"...Gilgal became Israel’s base of operations after the crossing of Jordan (Jos.
4:19), and was the focus of a series of events
during the conquest: twelve commemorative stones were set up when Israel pitched
camp there (Jos.
4:20); the new generation grown up in the
wilderness were circumcised there; the first Passover in Canaan was held there (Jos.
5:9–10)..." Kitchen, K. A. (1996). Gilgal. In
D. R. W. Wood, I. H. Marshall, A. R. Millard, J. I. Packer & D. J. Wiseman
(Eds.), New Bible dictionary (D. R. W. Wood, I. H. Marshall, A. R. Millard, J.
I. Packer & D. J. Wiseman, Ed.) (3rd ed.) (413). Leicester, England; Downers
Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.
"...[I]n any event no matter what either of us answer the definition of relics already given does not necessarily involve "worship" or "veneration" as you said "The stones were placed there as a remembrance."
The stones were
placed there to commemorate an event (Josh.
4:19–20). Do you believe Joshua was a pagan
idolater?
"Good point! Undoubtedly this [brass serpent] would be considered idol worship by some..."
To the
biblically illiterate.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the
wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in
Him should not perish but have eternal life. (John
3:14,
15)
"Notice that the Lord Jesus is calling Nicodemus's attention to something with
which he is very familiar--the account in the Old Testament of the lifting up of
the serpent in the wilderness. He said, 'Even so must the Son of Man be lifted
up.' The must corresponds to the must that our Lord gave to Nicodemus at the
very beginning of their conversation. He said, 'You must be born again,' and
since you must be born again, then the Son of Man must be lifted up. The
necessity of being born again makes imperative the lifting up of the Christ on
the Cross. It is a divine compulsion..." Full text:
God So Loved by J. Vernon McGee
Response to comment [from other]: "How about the Ark of the Covenant?"
See:
Ark of the covenant (Josh. 3:6; Heb. 9:4), Ark of the testimony (Ex. 25:22)
Response to comment [from other]:
[Why did you ask: " "Do you remember Gilgal serpentdove?"
]
"...[A]s a basis for conversation..."
Why did you
bring up Gilgal?
"....[O]bviously if you did not remember the story (or were unfamiliar with it in the first place) there would be no point in discussing the stones and whether or not they fall categorically into the relic area."
Are you trying
to argue that it is ok to worship objects?
[Do you believe Joshua was a pagan
idolater?
]
"[W]hy would you first accuse me of believing that, then later ask me if I
believe that...[?]"
Are you arguing
that Joshua was an idolater
and it is therefore ok to be like him?
Response to comment [from other]: [Brass serpent was a good point] "...[Y]ou had to cut and paste your "answers"..."
Ad hominem
"Keep hating!"
Ad hominem. It would be hateful not to warn idolaters
that they will not inherit the kingdom of God (1
Cor 6:9).
"You clearly don't know what an ad hominem is."
Ad hominem
[Why did you bring up Gilgal? Are you trying to argue that it is ok to worship objects? Are you arguing that Joshua was an idolater :noway: and it is therefore ok to be like him? :sleep:] "...[Y]ou have already accused me of all these things, so why would you be asking me now if it was true..."
If what was
true?
"...[A]nd you are not a liar?"
Proof please.
"Revelation 12:10..."
[SD: Why did you bring up Gilgal? Are
you trying to argue that it is ok to worship objects? Are you arguing that
Joshua was an idolater
and it is therefore ok to be like him?
Jeremysdemo: "...[Y]ou have already accused me of all these things, so why would
you be asking me now if it was true..."
SD: If what was true?
Jeremysdemo: "Revelation
12:10..."
[Did you have a purpose for
mentioning Gilgal?
]
"[T]ick tock."
...crickets
Eph 4:14
As a reminder, Jeremysdemon is
number 2 on Satan Inc. (TOL Heretics List) in the The
'Paul is a godless liar' crowd.
