Welcome back. Now go away.My Return: With Certain Guidelines
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "...I've decided to once again involve myself in the discussions here at TOL."
At least you have the same name. Welcome back. Now go away.
"Mmmm...nah-ah."
"...[L]et’s examine the Roman Catholic claim that it is the “first church.” Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the “one true church” doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles. All of these are core elements of the Roman Catholic faith. If most of the core elements of the Roman Catholic Church were not practiced by the New Testament Church (the first church and one true church), how then can the Roman Catholic Church be the first church?" Full text: What was the first / original church? Is the original / first church the true church?
Recommended Reading:
Is Rome the True Church?: A Consideration of the Roman Catholic Claim by Norman L. Geisler
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "I said that truth is apart from their feelings and experiences, not apart from "them" as people."
For the Catholic, Rome is the final authority [Commandments of men (Matt. 15:9), Rejection of God’s Word (Mark 7:8, 9), Productive of hypocrisy (Mark 7:6, 7), Inconsistent with Christ (Col. 2:8)]. For the Christian, God's word is the final authority (2 Ti 3:16).
See:
The Scriptures
Roman Catholicism
"...[S]erpent's preferred interpretations of God's Word."
Truth is truth independent from me.
"Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..."
Full text:How
to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson
See:
Hermeneutics
"...[I]ndividual's
personal interpretation..."
Scripture should be compared with scripture (not man's opinion) [1 Co 2:13].
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Responding to discussions of ad hominems] "An ad hominem is a person-directed statement which takes the place of a genuine argument."
He's not new and improved.
Response to comment [from a "Christian"]: "It's good to have you back - but its bad to see that you are dedicated to not debating but only clarifying RCC theology. "
"Ouch." ~ E.T.
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Seems like nothing more than an appeal to authority rather than an argument."
Period. Dot. Bingo (Ingraham).
He'll say "Your preferred interpretation..." 4,000 more times.
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "[D]o you recall that after He rose from the dead and met with two of His disciples they didn't recognize Him until he broke the bread and your sins are not forgiven until you repent..."
Cults and 'isms point
to themselves. Christians point to Jesus.
Your religion is about :greed: control over others (Lk
16:14). You are modern-day Pharisees.
Christianity is about freedom in Christ (Jn
8:36,
Rom. 6:18,
22).
The Roman Catholic Mass is a wicked and blasphemous ceremony.
"One of the most unbelievable, yet fiercely held, traditions of the Roman
Catholic Church is its dogma of transubstantiation. First pronounced at the
Fourth Lateran Council in l2l5 AD, it declares the entire substance of bread
and wine is transformed into the actual body and blood of the Lord Jesus
Christ Each Catholic priest is said to have the Spirit's power to call Jesus
down from heaven through this miracle of transubstantiation. Thus Jesus
becomes physically present on Catholic altars so that priests can offer Him
again to the Father for the sins of the living and the dead. After the
offering, God is eaten by Catholics when they ingest the Eucharist. Without
question, the Roman Catholic Church regards Christ's real presence in the
Eucharist a dogma of utmost importance. According to paragraph1324 of the
Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), the Eucharist is "the source and
summit of the Christian life." It teaches us: "the body and blood, together
with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the
whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained" in the Eucharist
(CCC, 1374). This is a non-negotiable dogma because the Council of Trent
placed a curse or anathema on anyone who does not believe it (Canon 1).
Furthermore, Catholics must consume the Eucharist because it is a necessary
requirement for their salvation (CCC, 1359). If Catholic priests can indeed
change bread and wine into the body and blood of the infinite Christ, and if
indeed consuming His body and blood is necessary for salvation, then the
whole world must become Roman Catholic to be saved from the wrath of God..."
Full text: Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries,
Newsletter Vol. 16.
Response to comment [from a "Christian"]: [Return of Catholic] "[Y]ou already did more than that. [:Mock:] Those say Cruciform broke his mission statement."
Dooku loves the
antichrist (Jude
18).
See:
The Jesus test, the gospel test, and the fruit test
Head's up bunny brain.
Response to comment [from a Christian]: "There are many roads to heaven..."
Jn 14:6.
Response to comment [from an atheist]: "...[I]t has something to do with lack of oxygen to the brain . . . Cruciform must yawn almost continuously."
Overuse of smilies. Isn't
that effeminate?
Response to comment [from an atheist]: [multi smilies]
Are you a priest?
TOLers have explained to
you the difference between works and grace.
"...God has revealed himself as "the help of the helpless." As long as a
person thinks he must contribute his own efforts to the work of God, he does
not understand his true condition or the work of Christ. He does not realize
that sin has incapacitated him so that he cannot do anything meritorious in
God's sight. Neither does he know the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. By
adding his supposed goodness to the work of our Lord, he is saying he
believes Christ's work was insufficient.
Paul's teaching in
Romans 11:6 is that
grace and works are mutually exclusive: "If by grace, then it is no more of
works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it
no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Kennedy, pg. 88.
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "...[W]e all know your Protestant tradition's opinion..."
God means what he says in his
word.
Is that what you say to the officer when he pulls you over?
Ossifer--
it's just your opinion that I was going 185 (Peltz).
"...For salvation...[one] must be trusting wholly in Christ, wholly in self,
or partially in Christ and partially in self. Many unsaved people who are
related to a church fall into the latter category. However, that position is
essentially the same as trusting fully in self. "Assuming that Christ has
done His part sufficiently, if I am to be saved I must do my part
acceptably. If, on the other hand, I am lost, it must be because I did not
do enough to win God's favor." This is the logic of partial trust in Christ
and partial trust in self. As one has said, "Grace is not the thread of gold
decorating the garment; rather, like the ancient mercy seat, it is gold,
pure gold, through and through."
...Every religion in the world teaches that man must earn the favor
of God by doing something. He must qualify himself. He must make himself
worthy of God's gifts. In contrast, Christianity proclaims that God's favor,
His blessings, and heaven itself can be had only as free gifts (Kennedy, pg.
88-89)."
"Yeah...it's just that he so often doesn't mean what YOU say he means in his word."
The correct question to
ask is: What hermeneutic are you using?
See:
Hermeneutics
"Gimmie the veggies." ~ The Rock, Fast Five
The bad news is--man is a sinner in need of a savior. "...[T]hough a person
may appear to be in pretty good shape with only a few sins a day, by the end
of a lifetime that will add up to many sins...
They don't know that because they are sinners and God's standard is
perfection, they cannot qualify for heaven.
We must clear the deck. The Scripture says to tear down and to build up. We
have to tear away, clear away, the old foundation on which they have built
their hope of eternal life before we can build a new one... (pg. 89-90,
Kennedy)."
"The correct question to ask is: "What is your doctrinal authority?"
For the Catholic it is the
Roman Catholic Church. For the Christian, it is the word of God (Ps
138:2). No plan or program can save you.
Jesus (not your church) has the authority to forgive sinners (Luke
5:24).
See:
The
Scriptures
God is merciful and he does not want to punish us (Ex
34:6,7;
Ps 62:12;
Ne 9:17;
Jn 4:2,10,11;
2 Co 1:3) but we must
come to him his way (Jude
1:11).
God is just (De 32:4;
Isa 45:21);
therefore, he must punish sin (Ex
34:7,
Eze 18:4,
Hab 1:13,
Ro 6:23). He is a
holy God (Ex
15:11;
1Sa 2:2). Unless your
righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and
Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt
5:20).
[Final authority] "For the Catholic, it is the authoritative teachings of Christ's historic Church."
Men can only understand
the word of God through the filter of the
Roman Catholic Church?
Rev. 3:14–22. Did God
make dumb dumbs?
"My name isn't Dum-dum. My name's Larry." ~ Larry, Night at the Museum
See:
The Sufficiency of Scripture by John MacArthur
"John Calvin said that the Roman Catholic Church taught him the deity of
Christ, the Trinity, the Atonement; but the one thing the church did not
teach him was how to appropriate the Atonement for himself. Even today there
are those who know all of the doctrines of the faith, but they don't know
how to get eternal life for themselves. Their problem: an inadequate or
false concept of saving faith (pg. 93, Kennedy)."
"Men can only understand Divine Revelation (God's Word: Scripture and Tradition) properly, accurately, and authoritatively according to the binding teachings of Christ's historic Church..."
God created man unable to
understand his God and his word?
Ps. 119:104,
130. What does this
say about God?
See:
Holy Spirit the Teacher
"[Faith] is not mere intellectual assent. Many people believe in God's
existence in much the same way as people believe in George Washington or
Napoleon. The devil believes in God's existence (Jas
2:19), but simply assenting
to that fact will not take him to heaven...[S]aving faith [is] trusting
Christ alone for eternal life (pg. 94)."
"Do the opinions of MacArthur and Kennedy possess some sort of inherently binding doctrinal authority..."
Do the opinions of rapist
homosexual pedophiles hold some sort of inherently binding doctrinal
authority? Mt 7:16. MacArthur and Kennedy are good Bible
teachers (Eph 2:8-9). They teach that God's word is the final word
(Lu 16:29,31). If
either of them preached a
work-based gospel, they should be rejected (Ga 1:3).
"...[D]on't bother quoting them as "authorities.""
Men lie (Matt.
15:9). God does not (Ps.
119:142,
151,
160).
Isa 5:20,
Ac 17:11.
See:
Is the priesthood of all believers biblical? Does the New Testament teach
that there should be a formal priesthood?
What
does it mean that Jesus and believers are living stones in 1 Peter 2:4-5?
How can a stone be alive?
What does 1 Peter 2:9 mean when it refers to believers as peculiar people?
What is meant by the term peculiar in regards to Christians in 1 Peter ...
"You've already been answered..."
Salvation is not by works (Ro 11:6; Eph 2:9; 2Ti 1:9; Tit 3:5). It is by God's grace (Eph 2:5,8; 2Ti 1:9; Tit 2:11).
"[A]men! ...a heinous lie..."
Amen means we agree. We do not. Our oral tradition is that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9). We are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8-9), through faith alone (Eph 1:13; 2Ti 1:10), in Christ alone (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). Roman Catholics deny this (Jude 1:11). "Paul spoke about the root of faith (Eph 2:8). James spoke about the fruit of faith (Jm 2:17-18)." ~ Adrian Rogers
[Does James contradict Paul] "It is interesting that the great literary man Ruskin said that there was only one book in the world that made it clear concerning faith alone and works and that was the Bible. Some people have said that the Bible contradicts itself at this point. They have specifically said that James contradicts Paul, for Paul is one of the major teachers of the concept of grace by faith, though it is taught throughout the New Testament...
[Same truth defended]...Let us see if there is indeed a contradiction, or if Ruskin is right and the Bible is, indeed, the only book that is absolutely clear on the subject of faith plus works. Are Paul and James defending two different truths? I believe a careful examination of the text and context will reveal that they are both defending the same truth against different errors or against a different set of antagonists.
An illustration might be of a seventeenth--or eighteenth-century damsel dressed in a white gown who is being attacked by two different bands of cutthroats. She is being defended by two heroes who have drawn their swords. Approaching from the north is one group of brigands and cutthroats who have set their hearts upon destroying this fair damsel, and one hero is fighting them while another hero has taken his stand at her other side and is fighting another group of cutthroats who are coming from the south. Though they are both defending the same truth, they are, in fact, fighting in opposite direction. And so are Paul and James...
[Different errors fought]...Let
us look first at the people to who they are speaking. Paul is
addressing the Pharisees, or the heathen who would attempt to justify
themselves by their own efforts. He is dealing with the legalist who
is saying that by keeping some set of rules, whether it be the Ten
Commandments of the Old Testament, or whether it be the laws of some heathen
religion, he will obtain the favor of
God. it is against this legalist that Paul is so adroitly fighting.
James, on the other hand, is addressing the members of the Christian
church--a particular portion of the members of the Christian church:
the hypocrites therein. You have heard it said that there are too many
hypocrites in the church. That is not a recent saying. James is
saying the very same thing right here, for he is talking to the professing
members of the church. These are the people who think they will be
saved by professing the right faith in Jesus Christ, and they have come to
the place where they say, "We see that a man is not saved by his good works.
What we must do is profess our faith in Christ and hold to the right
doctrines and be a part of a church which is sound in the faith." Yet there
is absolutely nothing in their lives that would evidence the fact that a
real faith exists...(pg. 178-179, Kennedy)"
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Amen."
Amen means we agree. We do not. Your "work" is preaching a false gospel which cannot save (Gal. 1:6–8).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "...[I]s it possible that your oral traditions are wrong..."
My oral traditions include a gagged tooth groan and mysterious mouse on a dark, dark moor, in a dark, dark wood. You'd better check 
what I say against scripture (Ac 17:11, Da 10:21).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "I fully agree with the biblical texts you quoted, just not with your preferred anti-Catholic tradition's..."
Christians are not anti-Catholic. They are anti-false teaching (Matt. 15:9). Your false jesus agrees with your false theology (Mt 24:24) He bows down to 
your Pope. It's all about you.
See:
No Sacrifice
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Amen."
Amen means we agree. We do not (2 Tim. 3:8).
See:
Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Amen/We do not agree] "...[B]ut I do agree with the Scriptures you quote..." 26 May 2011 18:37:11
Yet, the meaning that you pour into the scriptures is not biblical. You need the Holy Spirit to be your teacher. When you trust the Lord for salvation, you'll be headed in the right direction (Jn 14:26; 16:13).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Anti-Catholic] "You are..."
I am anti-false teaching (Ga 1:6-8).
[Evangelism Explosion by D. James Kennedy] "Once, a lady became very distraught with me after I had told her the Gospel of Christ, of the free grace of God and the proffered gift of eternal life to those who would trust or believe in Jesus Christ. She sat up indignantly in her chair and said, "Do you mean to tell me that all I have to do is sit here and say I believe in Jesus Christ, and I will go to heaven?"
My answer was, "No ma'am, that's not what I said."
She asked, "Well, what did you say?"
And I replied, "If you believe, or trust, in Jesus Christ, you will have eternal life as a free gift." She said, "You said it again! All I have to do is say that I believe, or trust, in Jesus Christ, and I'll go to heaven."
Again I answered, "No, ma'am, that's not what I said. I didn't say it now, I have never said it in the past under any circumstances, to anyone, anywhere, at any time. I have never made such a statement and never will because it is absolutely false."
She asked, "Well, what did you say?"
I said, "I did not say you would be saved by saying that you believed in Christ, but rather by believing in Him."
James says here: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man have faith and not works? Will faith save him?" Is that what James said? It is not! He said: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"
Unfortunately the King James Version does not deal too accurately with the last part of that verse. If you examine the Greek text, the phrase is hay pistis. It uses the definite article and should be translated, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say that he hath not works, can that faith save him?" In order to understand what James is saying, you have to know that throughout this whole chapter, when James talks about faith, he is talking about a said faith, a profession of faith. He never means "What shall it profit if a man have faith and not have works," because it is not possible that a man truly have real faith and not have works.
[Three Key Words] ...There are three key words in this passage in James. The first one we have just mentioned. It is the word say. "Though a man say he hath faith" (verse 14); "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works" (verse 18).
The second word is show. It is found in verse 18: "Shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew three my faith by my works."
The third word is see, which is found in verses 22 and 24: "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works" and "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified."
[Self-righteous or barren orthodox] ...Faith is invisible. A man may say he has faith, but you cannot see it, nor can you show it apart from works. There is absolutely no way anyone can know you have faith apart from your works. That is precisely why, at the Judgment, people are judged by their works. By their works they demonstrate the reality of their faith, though they are saved by faith. But the genuineness of that faith is shown to the world, and the world sees that that faith is real by the works that the people have done. So we see that Paul is dealing with the self-righteous, and James, on the other hand, is dealing with the barren orthodox--those who believe that by the correctness of their creed, they will be saved; those who may be expert on the confession, may argue it with great eloquence, may believe it in all of its details, may confess the Apostles'' Creed and the Westminster Confession, yet they have no fruit, no joy, no love, no peace, no works, no service for Jesus Christ.
Paul is talking to those who would deny faith in the cross of Christ for salvation, and James is talking to those who would demean that faith and reduce it and diminish it to nothing other than a bare, naked mental assent. For Paul, faith is an act of the entire, the whole interior, being of man. It is an act of the mind that accepts the deity of Christ and His atoning act in His resurrection as true. It is the act of the affections that responds to the love of God and, in turn, loves God with all of the heart and mind, strength and soul. it is an act of the will that bows to the sovereignty of God and determines to follow Jesus Christ. Paul says that we are saved by faith, but he says it is a faith that works by love. Even in Ephesians 2:8-9 where it says that we are saved by faith apart from works, it goes on in the next verse to say that we are created in Christ unto good works, which God has prepared for us.
We also see that James and Paul are using the concept of works in a different sense. Paul is talking to those people who would do works in order to be saved--works which they believe would lead to salvation. James is telling people that they need those works that flow out of salvation and result in salvation. True faith reaches up to connect us to the dynamo of the universe, to the Holy Spirit of God, and it always results in a transformation of life by the surging of the power of God into our lives. A man may say he has faith, but if he dos not demonstrate that transformation of life, then his faith is spurious (Kennedy, pg. 179-181)..."
[D James Kennedy] [laugh]
"...The importance of trusting in Christ alone for our salvation may be further explained as follows:
[Faith and works boats:] "Imagine that you are out in the middle of a lake, and there are two rowboats, and you are standing with one foot in each boat. One boat, however, is filled with holes and is sinking fast. it is obvious that unless you do something, you will soon by in the lake. The boat with the holes represents ourselves with all of the leaks caused by sin. The boat without holes represents Christ. It should be obvious that with one foot in each boat, we shall end upon the same place we would have ended up if we had had both feet in the boat marked self. The only safe place is to have both feet firmly planted in the boat marked Christ (pg. 181, Kennedy)."
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "I am "being saved"."
If that is true, why would you preach a false gospel? Mt 7:16. There is one gospel--it is one of grace not works (Eph 2:8-9, Ac 20:24).
"...[N]ow, we've established that you cannot show anyone in the first millennium that interprets the N.T. as you do..."
Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat).
You reject:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Also see:
Extra-biblical sources: Is there any confirmation of Biblical events from
written sources outside the Bible?
As a reminder, Patricius79 is number ten on
Satan Inc (TOL Heretics List ) in the Religious
Zealots (saved by works crowd).
"...[C]an you explain how we are saved through preaching if we are not saved by works in any sense?"
Salvation is revealed in the
gospel (Eph
1:13;
2 Ti 1:10).
See:
Works vs Faith
[Faith vs Works] Already answered (Post #1202).
Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat).
Men have always been saved the same way--by faith through grace (Ro 4:3).
[Rope or thread?] "...Or to change the picture, suppose you were trying to cross from one cliff to another one a hundred feet away. It is five thousand feet down to the rocks below. You have, however, a one-inch-thick piece of rope which is capable of holing up several tons. There is a difficulty, though, for you have only fifty feet of rope. I say, 'Do not worry! I have fifty feet of thread. We can tie my thread to your rope, and then tie that to trees on either cliff, and then you can go across.' You decline my offer, and I respond, 'What is the matter? Do you not trust the rope?' 'Yes,' you say, 'I trust the rope, but I do not trust the thread.'
"Then let's change the story and make it ninety feet of rope and only ten feet of thread. You're still not comfortable. Then suppose we make it ninety-nine feet of rope and only one foot of thread. One inch of thread? You see, if you have one inch of thread, you will be just as dead on the rocks below as if you tried to cross on a hundred feet of thread. The rope obviously represents what Christ has done, and the thread represents what we have done. We must trust in Christ alone. As Charles Spurgeon put it, 'If we have to put one stitch into the garment of our salvation, we shall ruin the whole thing.'" Pg. 181, Kennedy.
