On Matthew 16:18-19 & The Papacy

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Papacy necessary]

You are in error:

"...[W]hile Peter was central in the early spread of the gospel (part of the meaning behind Matthew 16:18-19), the teaching of Scripture, taken in context, nowhere declares that he was in authority over the other apostles, or over the Church (having primacy). See Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; and 1 Peter 5:1-5. Nor is it ever taught in Scripture that the bishop of Rome, or any other bishop, was to have primacy over the Church. Scripture does not even explicitly record Peter even being in Rome. Rather there is only one reference in Scripture of Peter writing from “Babylon,” a name sometimes applied to Rome (1 Peter 5:13). Primarily upon this, and the historical rise of the influence of the Bishop of Rome, comes the Roman Catholic Church teaching of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. However, Scripture shows that Peter’s authority was shared by the other apostles (Ephesians 2:19-20), and the “loosing and binding” authority attributed to him was likewise shared by the local churches, not just their church leaders (see Matthew 18:15-19; 1 Corinthians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 13:10; Titus 2:15; 3:10-11).

Also, nowhere does Scripture state that in order to keep the church from error, the authority of the apostles was passed on to those they ordained (apostolic succession). Apostolic succession is “read into” those verses that the Roman Catholic Church uses to support this doctrine (2 Timothy 2:2; 4:2-5; Titus 1:5; 2:1; 2:15; 1 Timothy 5:19-22)..." Full text: Was Saint Peter the first Pope?

Also see:

What does the Bible say about the pope / papacy? Does the Bible teach that there is to be one bishop in authority over the entire church?


Is papal infallibility biblical? Is the Pope infallible when he makes proclamations ex cathedra?

Response to comment [from other]:  "Serpentdove do you normally keep a written record of the grudges you bear in other areas of your life..."

It's all about me. Eph 5:11.

"Why must I be always the vocal point of attention? Let me just be, let me live." ~ George Costanza, Seinfeld

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Two things. If you are going to answer with a long quote from someplace else, I do believe you need to link to the source..."

A few housekeeping items.  I cite sources in the post.  If the quote is too long I link it to my website and cite the source there.

"...Also, I think it's a violation of the forum to just post quotes with no real commentary."

Get with CheeseWiz if you have additional problems. He has been successful having me banned before.

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "All you do is need to examine the fruits of the Roman Catholic Church over the centuries..."

Agreed.

"...Over the weekend, it came to light that a priest who the Dutch Catholic Church will only identify as “Father Van B.” has been serving on the board of directors of a group dedicated to making pedophilia legal in the Netherlands..." Full text: Priest endorses child molestation Mt 7:16

[Homosexual pedophilia in the Roman Catholic Church] My, my. isn't this ugly.

It is (Mt 7:16).

Response to comment [from an atheist]: "What would Jesus say about the popes today?"

Ask Cruciform. I think he'd have Jesus bowing to the Pope. Ps 138:2.

See:

No Papal Authority

"If you ever manage to come up with something even remotely intelligent to say, let us know, and I'll be sure to respond..."

"Elliott." ~ E.T. Ro 12:2.

[The Pope and the Papacy by John MacArthur] "...What it really comes down to is you deny what the Scripture says, you twist and pervert what the Scripture says, and you invent another religion based upon tradition. The Catholic Church says tradition is equal to Scripture and the Catholic Church determines what is tradition. She also says, does the Church, that the Popes determine the true meaning of Scripture and they alone know the true meaning of Scripture. And the meaning that they determine to be the true meaning is infallible.  So you have a man who claims to be the head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ. He arrogates to himself an authority that belongs to God alone. He feels free to interpret Scripture any way he wants to and it is infallible. And in the process, of course, abandons the plain sense of Scripture that teaches Christ alone is the way to salvation by faith alone...

...John Paul II apologized for the historic failings of Catholics in a very vague way, because when he was confronted with some of the issues of the past, some of the embarrassing things like forced conversion and antisemitism and some of the horrible things that were done, he apologized in a vague way. And you have to understand this, now how can you apologize if you're infallible? How can an infallible Church apologize?...

...Really it's hard to say whether the claim of infallibility is more ridiculous or more wicked. Wicked because it attributes to man what belongs only to God. Ridiculous because Popes have been so wrong so often and because the whole system is so wrong. One might conclude that they are infallible when it comes to being wrong..." Full text: The Pope and the Papacy by John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/PDF/ThePopeandthePapacy.pdf

Also see:

The Wrong Kind of Unity John 17:11 by John MacArthur
 

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "So, then, the Apostles were "wicked" because they purport to have delivered infallible teachings in their canonical writings, correct...? After all, is this not attributing to man what belongs only to God? (Apparently, MacArthur didn't think this one through, hmm?)"

The Popes are not apostles. They've never been apostles. They'll never be apostles (2 Cor. 11:13; Rev. 2:2). An apostle in one who walked and talked with Jesus ([Received their title from Christ (Lk 6:13), [saw Christ in the flesh] Lk 1:2; Ac 1:22; 1Co 9:1; 1 Jn 1:1])

See:

Who were the twelve (12) disciples / apostles of Jesus Christ? What is the difference between the 12 disciples and the 12 apostles?

Is apostolic succession biblical? Was the authority of the Apostles passed on to their successors?

[Ridiculous because Popes have been so wrong so often and because the whole system is so wrong.] "Proof, please."

If you had to have a Pope, why wouldn't you choose Paul who went to the gentiles rather than Peter went to the Jews (Ga 2:7)? Cruciform--not a Jew.

[If you had to have a Pope, why wouldn't you choose Paul who went to the gentiles rather than Peter went to the Jews (Ga 2:7)? Cruciform--not a Jew.] "Still waiting for that proof..."

What proof would you accept?  

[Saved by grace though faith Eph 2:8-9] I couldn't agree more, since this is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches.

"Catholic teaching: The sacraments are necessary for salvation. Catholic teachings state that the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Penance, Matrimony and the Anointing the Sick are needed to go to heaven.

Catholic teaching: Doing good deeds throughout your life will save you from hell.

Bible: Salvation is a gift of grace from God. Being good, doing good works, or fulfilling the sacraments will not save you from eternity in hell. Only by faith will you be saved. Follow the Bible which is God's Word and not the teachings of man. Good works come after you are saved as a showing of Christ's love in us..." Full text: Works vs Faith 2 Tim. 3:8

[What proof would you accept?] "Actual proof for MacArthur's claim that "Popes have been so wrong so often."

You don't accept scripture as proof (2 Tim. 3:8). Actual proof for you comes only from the Roman Catholic Church. That is why you could not answer this question:

If you had to have a Pope, why wouldn't you choose Paul who went to the gentiles rather than Peter went to the Jews (Ga 2:7)? Cruciform--not a Jew.

Why would you ask John MacArthur anything? He's not a Roman Catholic.

Note to self. Don't say "proof please" when you don't want it (Eph. 4:14, 1 Tim. 6:3–5).

"MacArthur claims that "Popes have been so wrong so often." I asked for proof for this claim."

Why? You have show us time and time again that you do not accept scripture as proof. For you, the final authority is Rome (Matt. 15:9, Mark 7:6-9, Col. 2:8). For the Christian, the final authority is the word of God (Jas 1:18). The reason we know that each of these traditions is unbiblical is because we search the scriptures to see if you know what you're talking about. You do not (Isa 8:20; Ac 17:11).

You still have no answer for this question?:

If you had to have a Pope, why wouldn't you choose Paul who went to the gentiles rather than Peter went to the Jews (Ga 2:7)? Cruciform--not a Jew.

See:

The Wrong Kind of Unity John 17:11 by John MacArthur

The Hilarious History of Papal Infallibility

[You resist the truth of scripture 2 Ti 3:8] ...[T]hat is a straightforward lie, and you know it...

As FOC pointed out, you said: "My goal will not be to debate about doctrines that have already been formally defined and promulgated by Christ's historic Catholic Church, but merely to state and clarify those doctrines. There's simply no need to "reinvent the wheel" at every Protestant whim (Cruciform)."

We take what your church says as gospel (Matt. 15:9). We do not take gospel as gospel (Ac 20:24). You will not accept scripture as proof to counter your claims (2 Tim. 3:8).

You are not interested in Jesus truth incarnate, the Word made flesh (Jn 1:1). You are interested in worshiping your jesus who is not the Jesus of scripture.

See:

Which Jesus Will You Trust?

The Wrong Kind of Unity John 17:11 by John MacArthur

The Hilarious History of Papal Infallibility
 

"...[I]t was Peter---not Paul---whom Jesus Christ appointed to shepherd his sheep (Jn. 21:15-17), and to whom he gave the keys of authority (Mt. 16:18-19; cf. Is. 22:22), and who was the first to proclaim Christ to the Gentiles (Ac. 10:25-48)."

Peter went to the Jews. Paul went to the gentiles (Ga 2:7). Are you a Jew? Are all your Roman Catholic friends Jews? Cruciform--not a Jew.

And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him [Acts 10:23–25].

"We can see that Cornelius had quite an influence on his family and friends. He has called them together for this occasion. Also we can see that Cornelius is still a pagan, a heathen. When he is instructed by an angel to send for Simon Peter, he concludes that this man must really be important; so he falls down and worships Peter.

It is interesting to see Simon Peter’s reaction to this. Friend, Simon Peter would never have let you get down to kiss his big toe. He just wouldn’t permit it."
McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 4:556

See:

A Scriptural Response to: Biblical Evidence or Catholics St. Joseph Communication

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "No, I don't think you can claim that, what with Judas having been replaced as an Apostle by the Apostles..."

And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor [Luke 6:12–16].

"Notice that Jesus prayed all night to God. Why? He was going to choose twelve men to be His apostles. He spent the entire night in prayer before making His choice. One of the apostles turned out to be a traitor. Another apostle denied Him but later repented. Notice, however, that God’s men were always chosen. There are many candidates, to be sure, but consider what John 15:16 says: “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” This has been a great comfort to me. I was a clerk in a bank when the Lord called me to be a preacher. I never dreamed of becoming a preacher; in fact, I actually looked down on preachers. I did not call Him, but He called me. I’ve always felt good about it, because since He called me, He is responsible. That is wonderful. It gives me comfort. The Lord found it essential and practical to spend the entire night in prayer before selecting the twelve apostles. Men chosen for God’s work should be selected on the basis of much prayer. The robe of Elijah did not fall by accident upon Elisha; it fell providentially. The present-day procedure by the church for choosing men to fill an office is far from God’s standard. We follow our feelings and consult our own selfish desires. We use human measuring rods rather than God’s measuring stick. We should spend time with God before making our decisions."

McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 4:272

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Already answered"

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat)

You said: "...[i]t was Peter---not Paul---whom Jesus Christ appointed to shepherd his sheep (Jn. 21:15-17), and to whom he gave the keys of authority (Mt. 16:18-19; cf. Is. 22:22), and who was the first to proclaim Christ to the Gentiles (Ac. 10:25-48)."

You're a snake oil salesman--not even a good one at that.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [Matt. 16:18].

"Let us look at this verse carefully. On what rock did Jesus build His church? There are those who say that it was built on Simon Peter. Well, obviously it was not, because there is a play upon words here. In the original Greek it is, “Thou art Petros [a little piece of rock], and upon this petra [bedrock] I will build my church.” There are others who hold that Christ is building His church upon the confession that Simon Peter made. I don’t agree with that at all.

Who is the Rock? The Rock is Christ. The church is built upon Christ. We have Simon Peter’s own explanation of this. In 1 Peter 2:4, referring to Christ, he writes, “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious.” And he remembers Isaiah 28:16, “… Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded” (1 Pet. 2:6). The church is built upon Christ; He is the foundation. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). Christ is the stone, and He says on this rock He will build His church. The church was still future when the Lord made this statement. And please don’t tell me there was a church in the Old Testament because the church did not come into existence until after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, and the sending of the Holy Spirit. There could not have been a church until all of these things had taken place. “I will build my church”—this was future.

The “gates of hell” refers to death. The word used for hell is the Greek word hades, the sheol of the Old Testament, which refers to the unseen world and means “death.” The gates of death shall not prevail against Christ’s church. One of these days the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout. That shout will be like the voice of an archangel and like a trumpet because the dead in Christ are to be raised. The gates of death shall not prevail against His church."
McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 4:92

See:

A Scriptural Response to: Biblical Evidence or Catholics St. Joseph Communication

You twist (2 Pet. 3:16) and misuse scripture (Matt. 22:23–29). We are not to make an idol of Peter or any man (Zech. 8:17, Eze 14:3,4) . God hates idolatry (Ex 20:2,3; De 5:7).

See:

No Idolatry and False Teaching

No Altering Commandments

Peter was rebuked by Paul. You can "get it" too--as Peter your supposed leader finally did.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction [2 Pet. 3:16].

"Peter says that what Paul wrote was Scripture. And he says that Paul wrote of truth in depth. He certainly did that, and in my opinion Peter did that pretty well himself here in this epistle."
McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 5:751

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Roman Catholic false teaching glorifying Peter not Jesus] "Your entirely unproven claim is noted...Peter is the Rock, the foundation stone..."

You pervert and invert the word of God (Eph. 4:14).  Christ is the rock (1 Cor. 10:4).  Christ is the precious corner stone (Isa. 28:16).  

See:

A Scriptural Response to: Biblical Evidence or Catholics St. Joseph Communication

[Peter not Christ is the rock (1 Cor 10:4) Peter not Christ the corner stone (Isa 28:16) ] "Your entirely unproven claim is noted...Peter is clearly "Rock." Indeed, Jesus could not be the "rock" here, since he portrays himself specifically as the Builder of the Church..."

Christ (not Peter not your Pope) is the rock (1 Cor. 10:4). Christ (not Peter not your Pope) is the precious corner stone (Isa. 28:16). Christ (not Peter not your Pope) will build his church (Mt 16:18).

Saints are believers in the Lord (Eph 1:1)--that's all. We don't make idols of them (Ho 3:1)--especially ones that had to be corrected by Paul (2 Pe 3:16) We are not to worship dead men or woman (Ps 106:28). We are not to set up idols in our hearts (Eze 14:3,4). Saints cannot hear your prayers (Ro 1:25; Isa 44:20, Lk 16:26). They don't visit you in the middle night or appear in phalaphels (Ex 32:4-6; Ps 106:19,20).

See:

No Idolatry and False Teaching

No Mary Worship

Get your eye off of dead saints and onto Jesus (De 7:25).

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "...[S]o where is the church..."

Christ (not Peter not the Pope) is the foundation-stone of the church (1 Co 3:11; Eph 2:20; 1 Pe 2:4,5). The body of Christ (Eph 1:23; Col 1:24) consists of believers worldwide (Isa 2:2; Eze 17:22-24; Da 2:34,35; Hab 2:14). The church is subject to Christ (not Peter not the Pope) [Ro 7:4; Eph 5:24]. Christ (not Peter not the Pope) will build his church (Mt 16:18).

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [Matt. 16:19].

"What are the keys of the kingdom of heaven? Were they given only to Simon Peter? No, Jesus gives them to those who make the same confession made by Peter, those who know Christ as Savior. If you are a child of God, you have the keys as well as any person has the keys. The keys were the badge of authority of the office of the scribes who interpreted the Scriptures to the people (see Neh. 8:2–8). Every Christian today has the Scriptures and, therefore, the keys. If we withhold the Word, we “bind on earth”; if we give the Word, we “loose on earth.” No man or individual church has the keys—to the exclusion of all other believers. We have a responsibility today to give out the gospel because it is the only thing that can save people. This is a tremendous revelation. Who is sufficient for these things? You and I have a responsibility that is awesome indeed!"
McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 4:92-93

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Already answered---and corrected..."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat)

"You can build on him (1 Cor. 10:4) or stumble on him (1 Pet. 2:8). He'll be a stepping stone (Ps 18:2) or stumbling stone (1 Cor 1:23, Luke 20:18)." ~ Adrian Rogers

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Already answered---and corrected..."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat) 2 Tim. 3:8

"...[Y]ou forgot to answer: "So, then, all of the Protestant biblical scholars quoted in Post #74 are 'perverting and inverting the word of God'...?"

Specifics Bob. :smokie:  Catholics can be in error.  Protestants can be in error.  God's word is the final word (Jas 1:18).

[God's word is the final word.] "Yes, God's word--not serpent's preferred interpretations of God's word..."

Truth is truth independent from me.

"Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..." Full text: How to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson

See:

Hermeneutics

"Then we can all simply ignore your personal interpretations of the Bible."

Truth is truth independent from me.

Your works cannot: justify you ( Rom. 4:2–6), determine God’s election (Rom. 9:11), secure righteousness (Rom. 9:31, 32) or substitute for grace (Rom. 11:6).

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: [Truth is truth independent from me. Works cannot: justify you ( Rom. 4:2–6), determine God’s election (Rom. 9:11), secure righteousness (Rom. 9:31, 32) or substitute for grace (Rom. 11:6).] "Good, then we can simply ignore your opinions listed..."

Isn't that what you encourage others to do daily? Prov. 29:1 Welcome to our church----check your brains at the door.

"Ignore your opinions? Absolutely."

Who cares what I say? What does God say? Eph 2:8-9, Jude 11

"...[M]y statements stand as posted, and you are refuted."

 Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat) 2 Tim. 3:8

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.). Eph 2:8-9

"Great, and Catholics agree entirely. Indeed, the Catholic Church was preaching this passage for a millennium-and-a-half..."

Great, then you'll advise others to trust in Christ and Christ alone. We are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8-9), through faith alone (Eph 1:13; 2Ti 1:10), in Christ alone (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). Unfortunately, Roman Catholics deny this (Jude 1:11).

"Catholic teaching: The sacraments are necessary for salvation. Catholic teachings state that the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Penance, Matrimony and the Anointing the Sick are needed to go to heaven.

Catholic teaching: Doing good deeds throughout your life will save you from hell.

Bible: Salvation is a gift of grace from God. Being good, doing good works, or fulfilling the sacraments will not save you from eternity in hell. Only by faith will you be saved. Follow the Bible which is God's Word and not the teachings of man. Good works come after you are saved as a showing of Christ's love in us..." Oopsie. Full text: Works vs Faith

You'll have more credibility when you acknowledge your church's departure from historical, biblical teaching (Rev. 3:14–22, Jude 11).

Response to comment [from a Christian]: "Greetings and blessings upon you all!! I have been reading everything I can on this topic and stumbled upon this forum via a Google search..."

Welcome to our trite debate. It goes back to Cain and Abel (Jude 11). It will continue until those who believed in a work-based faith (Eph 2:8-9) stand at the Great White Throne to pose their last plea "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name?" Mt 7:22. The word goes out. It does it's job (2 Pe 3:16). Tick tick tick (Jer 36:29-31).

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "...[S]erpent's ill-informed description of Catholicism as "a work-based faith" is a deliberate Straw Man Fallacy..."

"Catholic teaching: The sacraments are necessary for salvation. Catholic teachings state that the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Penance, Matrimony and the Anointing the Sick are needed to go to heaven.

Catholic teaching: Doing good deeds throughout your life will save you from hell.

Bible: Salvation is a gift of grace from God. Being good, doing good works, or fulfilling the sacraments will not save you from eternity in hell. Only by faith will you be saved. Follow the Bible which is God's Word and not the teachings of man. Good works come after you are saved as a showing of Christ's love in us..." Full text: Works vs Faith

"Thank you for perfectly proving my point made in Post #107 above..."

You said:

"...[S]erpent's ill-informed description of Catholicism..."

We do not do ourselves any favors by misrepresenting the opposition. Roman Catholic teaching and historical, biblical Christianity are not, in fact, the same (Eph 4:14).

"You nullify the Word of God by your traditions that you have handed down (Mk 7:13)."

Also see:

Roman Catholic Traditions (not one is biblical [Mt 15:9])

[We do not do ourselves any favors by misrepresenting the opposition.] "Then you should stop doing so immediately."

Proof please.

Tell us what is incorrect about the quote:

"Catholic teaching: The sacraments are necessary for salvation.

Catholic teachings state that the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Penance, Matrimony and the Anointing the Sick are needed to go to heaven.

Catholic teaching: Doing good deeds throughout your life will save you from hell.

Bible: Salvation is a gift of grace from God. Being good, doing good works, or fulfilling the sacraments will not save you from eternity in hell. Only by faith will you be saved. Follow the Bible which is God's Word and not the teachings of man. Good works come after you are saved as a showing of Christ's love in us..."
 

"Everything else in your post has already been refuted repeatedly, including this next one..."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat) 2 Tim. 3:8

As a reminder, your church has attempted to alter God's Second Commandment. Walk by any Roman Catholic Church and take a look at the revised text.

See:

No Altering Commandments

[Proof please.] "...Already given repeatedly..."

You have failed to give proof that I misrepresented the Roman Catholic position. You have failed to prove that the following statement is false:

"Catholic teaching: The sacraments are necessary for salvation.

Catholic teachings state that the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Penance, Matrimony and the Anointing the Sick are needed to go to heaven.

Catholic teaching: Doing good deeds throughout your life will save you from hell.

Bible: Salvation is a gift of grace from God. Being good, doing good works, or fulfilling the sacraments will not save you from eternity in hell. Only by faith will you be saved. Follow the Bible which is God's Word and not the teachings of man. Good works come after you are saved as a showing of Christ's love in us...

"...You simply cannot grasp it."

Ad hominem. Can I understand it and disagree with you? The statement is true or it is false.
 

[Roman Catholics attempt to alter God's word/Ten Commandments] "...[A]nother[/I] completely ignorant claim by serpent..."

Name the Ten Commandments according to the Roman Catholic Church. Name the Ten Commandments according to the Bible.

See:

No Altering Commandments

[You have failed to give proof that I misrepresented the Roman Catholic position.] "Already answered in previous posts."

Provide a link or retract your statement.  I did not, in fact, misrepresent Roman Catholic teaching.  You found no error in the quote in question because it is true. 

"Catholic teaching: The sacraments are necessary for salvation.

Catholic teachings state that the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Penance, Matrimony and the Anointing the Sick are needed to go to heaven.

Catholic teaching: Doing good deeds throughout your life will save you from hell.

Bible: Salvation is a gift of grace from God. Being good, doing good works, or fulfilling the sacraments will not save you from eternity in hell. Only by faith will you be saved. Follow the Bible which is God's Word and not the teachings of man. Good works come after you are saved as a showing of Christ's love in us..."

[Name the Ten Commandments according to the Roman Catholic Church. Name the Ten Commandments according to the Bible.] "Already answered---and refuted---in a previous post..."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat) 2 Tim. 3:8

Provide the link where you tell us what you believe the Ten Commandments are. You gave a Catholic source. What do you think? What are the Ten Commandments? Would you like to borrow my Book of Exodus?

[Provide a link or retract your statement.] "Nope."

[I did not, in fact, misrepresent Roman Catholic teaching.] "Sure you did."

Yet you are unwilling to show proof that the statement in question is false? If the statement is true, I have not misrepresented the Roman Catholic position as you have claimed. I am not the author of the quote. Nevertheless, Roman Catholicism is a work-based faith. Christianity is grace-based (Eph 2:8-9).

We are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8-9), through faith alone (Eph 1:13; 2 Ti 1:10), in Christ Isa 63:9; Eph 5:23; in Christ alone (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). Roman Catholics deny this (Jude 1:11).

"Catholic teaching: The sacraments are necessary for salvation.

Catholic teachings state that the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Penance, Matrimony and the Anointing the Sick are needed to go to heaven.

Catholic teaching: Doing good deeds throughout your life will save you from hell.

Bible: Salvation is a gift of grace from God. Being good, doing good works, or fulfilling the sacraments will not save you from eternity in hell. Only by faith will you be saved. Follow the Bible which is God's Word and not the teachings of man. Good works come after you are saved as a showing of Christ's love in us..."

It's probably wise to avoid attacking people and concentrate on attacking issues next time. It is possible to present Roman Catholic teaching accurately and reject it as unbiblical.

[You found no error in the quote in question.  The statement is true.] "No, it isn't."

If you cannot prove your case based on scripture, we are to reject your false teaching (Ga 1:8). They do not read Galatians in your apostate church. See why? Eph 4:14.

[Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat)] "Precisely what serpent is doing with this quotation."

Does it matter? Won't your response be Barbiesk? "I'm rubber, you're glue! Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!” In psychology they call your reaction projection. It's tough, we know. You could always speak the truth (Eph 4:14).

[Provide the link where you tell us what you believe the Ten Commandments are.] "Already did (Post #115)."

You gave us a link. Do you believe the revised Roman Catholic Ten Commandments or do you believe the Bible?

See:

No Altering Commandments

If listing all ten is inconvenient for you, how about just the Second Commandment? The Ten Commandments are listed in stone--in error outside many Roman Catholic Churches throughout the country. Walk by Zombieland® if you doubt my claim. I don't believe they attack you (at this point ) like they do in the movie I Am Legend. What happened to the Second Commandment? Why was it removed by your church?

d“You shall have no other gods before Me.
d Deut. 6:14; 2 Kin. 17:35; Jer. 25:6; 35:15

Do Roman Catholics want something to come between you and your God? If so, why? Luke 16:14. Do Roman Catholics hope you will not read the word of God? If so, why? Eph. 4:14.

[I'm rubber you're glue...:freak] "...You can go ahead and just apply that to yourself."

Classic.

As a reminder when the veil was torn (Matt. 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45) it symbolized the opening of a new and living way to God (Heb. 6:19; 9:3; 10:20). You do not need to subscribe to plans or programs. Plans and programs do not save. Jesus saves (2 Pe 3:9, Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12).
 

Men do not need a priest--certainly boys do not need to be abused by homosexual pedophile priests (Mt 7:16).

See:

No Mediator

Is the priesthood of all believers biblical? Does the New Testament teach that there should be a formal priesthood?

What is sacerdotalism? Are priests essential mediators between God and man? Does sacerdotalism agree with the priesthood of all believers?

What is the cause of the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Why are there pedophile priests in the Roman Catholic Church?

Response to comment [from a Catholic]:  [Do Catholics read Galatians at mass?] [W]ait.....huh?... I'll be right back.............................................. .................................................. ...checking Bible........

okay - whew! Still in there...."
 

I'd love to see a copy in your missalette. How often have I heard Catholics say, "I've never read that;" "They've never read that at mass."

Better get to it. God created you. You are responsible to him. Jesus loves you (Jn 3:16). Jesus is willing to save you (2 Pe 3:9). Repent (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30). Believe (Mk 9:23).

[Galatians] "...Must be Catholics who don't pay attention."

Wonder how they missed that book after a K-12 Catholic education? They can spell--I'll give them that. Unfortunately, God isn't going to care about your spelling (Mt 6:33).

[Classic.] "Yes, yours is the classic blunder..."

Who said you're no fun?

[Sexual abuse of children in the church] "...[N]or by Protestant pedophile pastors...."

That is wicked--for Catholics, Protestants--any church (Deut. 22:22–29). Did we ever get you to condemn your church's wickedness in this matter or are you still first out of the gate defending them? Are we still in ...crickets...mode on that point? 2 Pet. 2:12–19.

[Wonder how they missed preaching/teaching Galatians] "...Already answered (Post #123)..."

We know you never acknowledge reality. If others question my claim, when you can find a sober Catholic-- ask him/her if they ever learned about salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9, Ga 1:6-8). Ask them about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Bring Endust® with you if they plan to open their Bible.

"[C]hurches" do not molest children...I energetically condemn the Catholic priests who actually committed these evil acts. It should simply go without saying..."

Agreed. Any Catholic, Protestant--anyone--who abuses a child is evil (Deut. 22:22–29).

[Acknowledging reality] "So much for your beginning statement in Post #30, hmm? You can go ahead and retract it now."

Why would I do that? You have had every opportunity to acknowledge the problem of homosexual pedophilia in your church but until now you have not even acknowledged that there is a problem.

You said: "I energetically condemn the Catholic priests who actually committed these evil acts. It should simply go without saying..."

That's fine but why should it go without saying? It's gone without saying by you for months. You refuse to acknowledge the reality of wicked popes, unbiblical teaching from your church including: Mary worship, Eucharist worship (idolatry), altering Commandments, pagan prayer beads, etc. See that animal on the right? That's you (Eph 4:14).

If you'd like a retraction show some acknowledgment of facts and reality. I should have clarified--in our discussions when I refer to facts of history and reality I mean on this planet earth--the one we live on.

"Why would you retract your claim that I never acknowledge reality? Because in Post #132, you agreed with a statement of mine, thus demonstrating that I do, in fact, "acknowledge reality." You have plainly and publically refuted yourself. Therefore, I'll await the retraction of your false claim."

Fair enough. I retract my statement that you "never" acknowledge reality. I should have said you "rarely" acknowledge reality on planet earth (Ga 5:9).

[I should have said you "rarely" acknowledge reality on planet earth. :alien:] "Now go ahead and post your proof for this unsubstantiated claim."

Anyone who reads your posts will quickly come to this conclusion. It would seem you are not hear to share truth. You are here to resist the word of God (2 Ti 3:8, Isa 55:11) and deceive (Eph 4:14). 

Roman Catholic teaching on Purgatory is unbiblical. Are you sticking with that storytelling, too?

See:

No Purgatory

[Resisting God's word a no-brainer] "Then it should be easy for you to post an example of me supposedly "resisting reality" correct?"

It's obvious to anyone who has read more than three of your posts. You're going to need the Holy Spirit to discern (Jn 16:14). Get saved (Mt 6:33). Ditch whatever sin it is that you love so much (Jn 3:19) Then, you'll get it (Isa 11:2; 40:13,14).

"...He saves us by realistic restoration of our heart to God and then by dwelling there with his Father through the distinctively diving Spirit. The heart thus renovated and inhabited is the only real hope of humanity on earth.

The statement that "Man shall not live by bread alone" was adapted by Jesus from the history of the Jewish experience with God. Jesus was, among other things, the most profound and powerful expression of that experience. But it was also given new and profound meaning by his death and resurrection. Through them he established a radically new order of life on earth within the kingdom of God. It was free of any specific ethnic or cultural form. All human beings can now live the life of the renovated heart by nourishing ourselves constantly on his personal presence--now here in our world, beyond his death and ours.

Contrary to what many say today, our deliverance (salvation) does not arise out of the murky human depths from which our natural life springs--whether that includes an "oversoul" or "collective unconsciousness" or not. But Jesus moves into the through those very depths, whatever they contain, to bring us home to God. there, too, he is Master. The spiritual renovation and the "spirituality" that comes from Jesus is nothing less than an invasion of natural human reality by a supernatural life "from above."" Pg. 18-19, Renovation of the Heart by Dallas Willard.

[Denial of reality and Word of God] "Nope, try again."

Christians present evidence that you reject time and time again (Psa. 50:16, 17; Prov. 1:29, 30; Prov. 13:13; Isa. 5:24; Isa. 28:9–14; Isa. 30:9–11; Isa. 53:1; Jer. 6:10; Jer. 8:9; Hos. 8:12; Amos 2:12; Mic. 2:6; Luke 16:31; Luke 24:25; John 3:20; John 5:46, 47; John 8:37, 45; 1 Cor. 1:18, 22, 23; 2 Tim. 3:8; 2 Tim. 4:3, 4; 1 Pet. 2:8; 2 Pet. 3:15, 16; Rev. 22:19). If you believe men's ` false traditions (Matt. 15:9), you'll die an eternal death (Jude 11). If you believe God's word, you'll live (John 3:3–16; John 5:24–26, 40; John 6:27, 33, 35, 40, 47; John 10:10; John 11:25, 26; John 14:6; John 17:2, 3; John 20:31; Rom. 6:4, 5, 8, 11, 13, 22, 23; Rom. 8:10; 1 John 1:1, 2).

Infant baptism is unbiblical.

See:

No Infant Baptism

"Don't bother posting an example of me rejecting your preferred interpretations of the Bible..."

Truth is truth independent from me.

"Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..." Full text: How to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson

See:

Hermeneutics

Roman Catholicism

It's possible that I am a liar and a false teacher. It's also possible that I am telling you the truth (Ac 17:11). You are commanded to obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8). You will or you won't (Gal. 1:6–8). Scripture should be compared with scripture (not man's opinion) [1 Co 2:13].  

Response to comment [from a Christian]: [Popes] "Excellent evasive tactics."

He is spiritual toward Rome not Jesus (Mt 15:9). This type of "spirituality" leads to death (Jude 11). He has not received Christ's forgiveness (Re 2:5,16; 3:3).  

["Preferred interpretation" :blabla:] I've already answered this post several times. I'm finished humoring you..."

"You know for a clownfish, he really isn't that funny." ~ Bill, Finding Nimo

You're finished using this fallacious argument? If people believe men who lie (Gal. 1:6–8, Matt. 15:9, Eph. 4:14) they will end up in hell (Jude 11). If people believe God's word they will end up in heaven (Jn 14:6). God said it (Eph 2:8-9). That settles it.

[He is spiritual toward Rome not Jesus.]

"[S]erpentdove is a public liar (Prov. 19:5)."

Proof please. You removed the scripture. I'll put it back. I said:

"He is spiritual toward Rome not Jesus (Mt 15:9). This type of "spirituality" leads to death (Jude 11). He has not received Christ's forgiveness (Re 2:5,16; 3:3)."

We know this is true because you preach a false gospel of works (Gal. 1:6–8, Mt 7:16-17).

"Pr 19:5, 9 For the sin of perjury, cf. 6:19; 12:17; 14:5, 25; 19:9; Deut. 19:18–21."
MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Pr 19:5

[Proof please ] "None is required, since it's you who made the initial claim. In Post #147, you publically claimed that I am "spiritual toward Rome not Jesus." My reply was to observe that this statement is a straightforward lie (Post #150)."

When you accept what Jesus did on the cross as your only payment for sin (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16, 63:9, Eph 5:23, Ac 4:12), you can be a Christian.

"Your public claim is a lie, and you, therefore, are a public liar...[S]erpentdove is a public liar..."

As opposed to a private liar? Proof please. Christians have shared the truth with you. You will not be forgiven if you continually resist the truth of God's word (2 Tim. 3:8, Mt 12:32).

"In Post #147, you publically claimed..."

A few housekeeping items:

TOL is a public forum. We know that comments may be read by the public.

"...[T]hat I am "spiritual toward Rome not Jesus." My reply was to observe that this statement is a straightforward lie (Post #150)."

I disagree.

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness [2 Pet. 2:15].

"Balaam is mentioned three times in the closing books of the New Testament. In 2 Peter it is the way of Balaam. In Jude it is the error of Balaam. And it is the doctrine of Balaam in the Book of Revelation. Each one is different. What is “the way of Balaam”? Peter says he is “the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness.” Balaam knew that he should not go and prophesy against Israel, but he loved the price that was being offered to him. Therefore, “the way of Balaam” is the covetousness of one who does religious work for personal profit."
McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 5:740

Sound like anyone you know? It is possible to identify your false teaching and expose it (Eph 5:11). Christ's death on the cross was God's satisfying solution to our sin problem.

See:

Sacrifice

"Your public claim is a lie, and you, therefore, are a public liar.  [S]erpentdove is a public liar (Prov. 19:5)."

A few housekeeping items:

I've corrected your spelling error twice ("therfore"). It is clear that you love to copy and paste this line. You may want to correct the error before posting it again.

Proof please. Let's test your claim. Is it necessary to sacrifice Jesus day by day, hour by hour in the mass or was his sacrifice full and sufficient? Is the Roman Catholic mass necessary or is it blasphemous? Do you believe men who lie (Matt. 15:9) or do you believe God's word? Do you trust Rome or do you trust scripture? Lu 16:29,31, Pr 6:23; 2 Pe 1:19. We come to God his way not our own way (Jude 11). Your "faith" is only as good as the object it's in.

"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you (Jn 15:2-3)."

See:

No Sacrifice

Your "Jesus" does not exist.

"Roman Catholicism vs. historical, biblical Christianity: "We have different authorities, we believe different gospels, we worship different Christs, we are led by different spirits and we are on different paths to eternity. Compare this with the unity the apostle Paul described with those who are in one body and one ......Spirit, with one hope; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, on God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all (Eph 4:4-6)...

...According to many Reformers, Satan's crown jewel is the Roman Catholic religion. It is his most seductive and deceptive form of counterfeit Christianity in the world. Granted, there are many other apostate churches, but none compare in the size, power, influence and wealth to the apostate church headquartered in Rome. The problem most Catholics have is they have been indoctrinated from birth with the lie that they belong to the one true Church. By believing this lie, they have no incentive to read God's word and therefore they cannot discern truth from error. I pray you will ask God to reveal His truth to you as you abide in His Word (Proclaiming the Gospel, Vol 18 no. 4)."

See:

Which Jesus Will You Trust?

"Your public claim in Post #147 is a lie, and you, therefore, are a public liar.  [S]rpentdove is a public liar (Prov. 19:5)."

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means." ~ Inigo Montoya

You corrected the spelling.

Proof please. Eph 4:14.

"Already answered (Post #154)..."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat)

You fail to prove that I have lied about your position.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches idolatry. Idolatry is hatful toward God (Deut 16:22, Jer 44:4). Get your eye off of saints who cannot help you (Ps 106:28). Get your eye on Jesus. Repent of all your wicked religion.

See:
No Idolatry & False Teaching

"Liar...Your public claim in Post #147 is a lie, and you, therefore, are a public liar.  [S]erpentdove is a public liar (Prov. 19:5)..."

Jesus loves you (Jn 3:16). Jesus is willing to save you (2 Pe 3:9). Repent (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30). Believe (Mk 9:23).

"...[L]iar..."

There is a difference between :olinger: Roman Catholic teaching and historical, biblical Christianity.  The Protestant Reformation was necessary to remind people:  we are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8-9), through faith alone (Eph 1:13; 2Ti 1:10), in Christ alone (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). Roman Catholics deny this (Jude 1:11). 

"...[S]ola fide ("faith alone")...the New Testament categorically rejects (Rom. 2:5-11; Jas. 2:24)."

Men have always been saved the same way--by grace through faith. We are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8-9), through faith alone (Eph 1:13; 2 Ti 1:10), in Christ alone (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). Roman Catholics deny this (Jude 1:11).

"Paul spoke about the root of faith (Eph 2:8). James spoke about the fruit of faith (Jm 2:17-18)." ~ Adrian Rogers

See:

Works vs Faith

[Jas 2:21-26]

You are spiritual--and so what. Your faith is not in accordance with scripture. Faith is only as good as the object it is in (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). Your Jesus is not the Jesus of scripture (Mt 15:9). Your Jesus does not exist (1 Ki 8:27).

See:

No Sacrifice

No Idolatry & False Teaching

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "...[S]o why isn't everyone saved?"

Why do you resist the truth of scripture? 2 Tim. 3:8. Christians have shared the truth with you. Love that sin too much? Jn 3:19-21.

See:

Major Christian Doctrines

[Men have always been saved the same way--by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).]  "Agreed. This is precisely what Christ's historic Church has always taught.

Given that the theological opinions of the Protestants you quoted carry no inherently binding doctrinal authority whatsoever, there's really no need for me to respond to them, except to merely dismiss them to the degree that they fail to comport with the authoritative teachings of Christ's historic Church..."

The Roman Catholic Church departed from historical, biblical Christianity (Rev. 3:14–22). The Protestant Reformation was necessary to bring the church back in line with the Bible. Obey God not man (Ac 5:29). His word (not Rome) is the final authority (Ps 138:2). The scriptures (not Rome) are full and sufficient (Lu 16:29,31), an unerring guide (Pr 6:23; 2 Pe 1:19). They (not the Roman Catholic Church) are able to make men wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus (2 Ti 3:15).

See:

Unbiblical Traditions of the Roman Catholic Church

Works vs Faith

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "...Every human being who tries to follow Jesus listens to men. Or maybe women, but you and they are kidding yourselves if you think you are listening exclusively to God."

Listen to men (Ro 16:26). Be sure they are not false teachers. Check what they say against God's word (Ac 17:11). The scriptures are profitable both for doctrine and practice (2 Ti 3:16,17). The Roman Catholic Church has been given no special authority. The Roman Catholic Church is an apostate church (Rev. 3:14–22). They are in their final stages of apostasy (Mt 7:16). They preach another gospel (Gal. 1:6–8), another Jesus (2 Pet. 2:1, 1 Ki 8:27) and another way of salvation (Matt. 15:9). Cruciform would have more credibility if he acknowledge the differences between Roman Catholicism and historical, biblical Christianity. He resists the truth found in the word of God (2 Tim. 3:8, Jn 14:6, Jn 1:1) and continues on his way (Jude 11).

See:

Is apostolic succession biblical? Was the authority of the Apostles passed on to their successors?

Is the priesthood of all believers biblical? Does the New Testament teach that there should be a formal priesthood?
 

"When two different, or two thousand different, people read the same Bible and come up with different ideas of what it means, then they are listening to themselves, some person, [I]something [/I]not-God..."

Men are sinners. They can be in error. It is incumbent on us to find out what is true (Ac 17:11). We compare scripture with scripture (not Rome) [1 Co 2:13, Ps 138:2]. To suggest that God made man unable to understand his word is absurd. God's spirit speaks to us on a deeper level than any man (Isa 11:2; 40:13,14). The Spirit of God takes the word of God and makes it real to the believer (1 Co 2:10,13. Jn 16:14. Jn 14:26; 16:13). Truth is found in God's word (Ps 119:160; Jn 17:17) not false teachers (Eph. 4:14).

"...To ascertain truth through divine revelation...is a reasonable and rational use of human intelligence, because we have something trustworthy to lean upon. Revelation is not something which bypasses the human capacity for reason, but rather it is something to which human reason submits, and finds satisfaction and pleasure in doing.

Once reason thinks it knows better than revelation, and places itself above God's Word, watch out....Human reason was not designed to function independently of divine revelation. It's God's job to provide the signals, and it's our job to read them properly and respond accordingly. To do so is to act responsibly. When it comes to acting irresponsibly, there seems to be no end to the things human reason will justify, given enough time and mental gymnastics to please its case (pg. 51, Overman)."

"Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..." Full text: How to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson

See:

Hermeneutics

"...The desire to be "right" is a sin."

We adhere to the truth (Ga 1:6,7; 2:14; 2Ti 1:13).  We are not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Ro 1:16; 2Ti 1:8).  The rejection of the gospel was foretold (Isa 53:1; Ro 10:15,16).  Even in his sin and rebellion, Cruciform proves that the Bible is true.

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Oh no, not another work of man!"

"Scripture clearly teaches that man is justified by faith alone, not by faith plus works. According to the Apostle Paul, "If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Rom. 11:6). Elsewhere Paul testifies, "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9, emphasis added; see Acts 16:31 and Rom. 4:3-6). In fact, it is clearly taught throughout Scripture that "a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" (Rom. 3:28; see Gal. 2:16; Rom. 9:31-32; 10:3).

In contrast, Roman Catholicism places an undue stress on human works. Catholic doctrine denies that God "justifies the ungodly" (Rom. 4:5) without first making them godly. Good works therefore become the ground of justification. As thousands of former Catholics will testify, Roman Catholic doctrine and liturgy obscure the essential truth that the believer is saved by grace through faith and not by his own works (Eph. 2:8-9). In a simple sense, Catholics genuinely believe they are saved by doing good, confessing sin, and observing ceremonies.

Adding works to faith as the grounds of justification is precisely the teaching that Paul condemned as "a different gospel" (see 2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6). It nullifies the grace of God, for if meritorious righteousness can be earned through the sacraments, "then Christ died needlessly" (Gal. 2:21). Any system that mingles works with grace, then, is "a different gospel" (Gal. 1:6), a distorted message that is anathematized (Gal. 1:9), not by a council of medieval bishops, but by the very Word of God that cannot be broken. In fact, it does not overstate the case to say that the Roman Catholic view on justification sets it apart as a wholly different religion than the true Christian faith, for it is antithetical to the simple gospel of grace.

As long as the Roman Catholic Church continues to assert its own authority and bind its people to "another gospel," it is the spiritual duty of all true Christians to oppose Roman Catholic doctrine with biblical truth and to call all Catholics to true salvation. Meanwhile, evangelicals must not capitulate to the pressures for artificial unity. They cannot allow the gospel to be obscured, and they cannot make friends with false religion, lest they become partakers in their evil deeds (2 John 11)..." Full text: Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "The solemn duty of every Christian is to follow Jesus..."

Get to know the Jesus of scripture (Mt 22:29; Ac 13:27).

"...Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned and bring the peace of Christ to the world.  Good luck with that."

Obey the word of God (Ps 119:158).  Works are insufficient for salvation (Psa. 49:7, 8; Psa. 127:1, 2; Eccl. 1:14; Isa. 43:26; Isa. 57:12; Isa. 64:6; Ezek. 7:19; Ezek. 33:12–19; Dan. 9:18; Matt. 5:20; Luke 17:7–10; Luke 18:9–14; Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20–31; Rom. 4:1–8 vs. 9–22.; Rom. 8:3; Rom. 9:16, 31, 32; Rom. 11:6; 1 Cor. 13:1–3; Gal. 2:16, 19, 21; Gal. 3:10–12, 21 vs. 1–29.; Gal. 4:9–11; Gal. 5:2, 4, 6, 18; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:3–9; Col. 2:20–23; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 3:4, 5; Heb. 4:3–10; Heb. 6:1, 2; Heb. 9:1–14; Jas. 2:10, 11). Swanson, James ; Nave, Orville: New Nave's. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1994

If you insist on being "religious" care for widows and orphans.

Ad hominem.

You're projecting again. Your ignorance of the word of God is the source of your error (Mt 22:29; Ac 13:27). You do not know the Jesus of scripture (Phil 3:8-9). You believe the lie (2 Thess 2:11).

[Your premise is false.] "It's your premise, not mine."

You said: "his historic Church". Your premise is false.

Recommended reading: Is Rome the True Church?: A Consideration of the Roman Catholic Claim

"God's word---not serpent's opinion..."

Ad hominem.

Truth is truth independent from me.

The scriptures are written for our instruction (Ro 15:4). Believe the Bible.

"...[Y]our theological opinions can simply be dismissed."

Isn't that what you do every day? You only destroy yourself (2 Pe 3:16).

[If my claims cannot be supported by scripture reject them (Ac 17:11).] "Already have."

We know (Jer 8:9).

"...[P]rove your claim that the Catholic Church is not Christ's historic Church."

Read the book. You'll need more than: "...[Y]ou could save a lot of wasted time and simply go here..." The way to life is difficult. Few find it (Mt 7:13-14).

See:

Which Way to Heaven? by John MacArthur

"...[G]o ahead and name the non-Catholic sect which supposedly qualifies as Christ's historic and authoritative Church."

Find a Bible church that stays true to the word of God (Ps 119:42).

"[Y]our theological opinions can simply be dismissed."

Isn't that what you do every day? Mark 7:9-13.

Ad hominem. Truth is truth independent from me.

"I dismiss your theological opinions every day."

We know. You do more than that (2 Pe 3:16).

[Read the book] "That's what I thought---no proof."

There's no proof if you do not study the topic (Ac 20:28; Eph 5:25; Heb 9:12).

[Find a Bible church] "That's what I thought---no valid alternative from serpent."

There is no other church if you do not find one that stays true to the word of God (1 Co 6:11; Eph 5:26,27).

"I  have found "a Bible Church that stays true to the word of God": Christ's historic Catholic Church..."

Too bad you didn't read the book (Ro 7:4; Eph 5:24). You'd learn that your claim is false.

Recommended Reading:

Is Rome the True Church?: A Consideration of the Roman Catholic Claim by Norman L. Geisler

[Truth is truth independent from me.] "Good. Then serpent's theological opinions and preferences can simply be dismissed."

Isn't that what you do every day? 2 Co 2:17.

See:

Indifference, Denial, Rebellion

My earlier comment is proven: He is spiritual toward Rome not Jesus (Mt 15:9). This type of "spirituality" leads to death (Jude 11). He has not received Christ's forgiveness (Re 2:5,16; 3:3).

"...[N]o proof whatsoever..."

What type of proof would you accept? You do not accept the authority of scripture (Lu 16:29,31, Pr 6:23; 2 Pe 1:19) or historical facts. The scriptures were written for our instruction (Ro 15:4). Everything should be tried by them (Isa 8:20; Ac 17:11).
 

"...[S]erpent has no valid non-Catholic alternative which qualifies as Christ's historic Church..."

You removed the scripture. I'll return it to the conversation. The church is sanctified and cleansed by Christ (not the Roman Catholic Church). 1 Co 6:11; Eph 5:26,27. The church has been purchased by the blood of Christ (not the Roman Catholic Church). Ac 20:28; Eph 5:25; Heb 9:12. Believers are subject to him (not the Roman Catholic Church). Ro 7:4; Eph 5:24. Christ (not the Pope ) is the foundation stone (1 Co 3:11; Eph 2:20; 1 Pe 2:4,5) of his church.
 

"...[D]idn't buy into your 16th-century Protestant assumptions..."

Men have always been saved the same way--by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).  By faith Abel (Heb 11:4), by faith Enoch (Heb 11:5), by faith Noah (Heb 11:7), by faith Abraham (Heb 11:8), by faith Sarah (Heb 11:11), etc. All died in faith (Heb 11:13).

Works are insufficient for salvation (Psa. 49:7, 8; Psa. 127:1, 2; Eccl. 1:14; Isa. 43:26; Isa. 57:12; Isa. 64:6; Ezek. 7:19; Ezek. 33:12–19; Dan. 9:18; Matt. 5:20; Luke 17:7–10; Luke 18:9–14; Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20–31; Rom. 4:1–8 vs. 9–22.; Rom. 8:3; Rom. 9:16, 31, 32; Rom. 11:6; 1 Cor. 13:1–3; Gal. 2:16, 19, 21; Gal. 3:10–12, 21 vs. 1–29.; Gal. 4:9–11; Gal. 5:2, 4, 6, 18; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:3–9; Col. 2:20–23; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 3:4, 5; Heb. 4:3–10; Heb. 6:1, 2; Heb. 9:1–14; Jas. 2:10, 11). Swanson, James ; Nave, Orville: New Nave's. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1994

"You really need to give up citing Geisler's book..." []

But you find it so funny--again...and again...and again.

Let the reader decide.

"...[L]iar..."

If you do not trust in Christ, you are not a believer (Eph. 4:14); You are a make-believer (Jn 10:26,27. Ps 130:5).  No plan or program saves (Gal. 1:6–8).  Jesus saves.  We are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8-9), through faith alone (Eph 1:13; 2Ti 1:10), in Christ alone (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). Roman Catholics deny this (Jude 1:11).  

[What type of proof would you accept?] "The same factual and rational proof that any thinking person would accept..."

What meaning would a rational person pour into Ps 138:2?  What about Ps 130:5?

"I do not accept serpent's fallible interpretation (opinion) of Scripture..."

Truth is truth independent from me.

"Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..." Full text: How to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson

See:

Hermeneutics

[Everything should be tried by scripture] "Do you consult the Scriptures to know which side of your toast to butter?"

You removed the scriptures from my quote (Nu 15:31, Eph 4:14).  I'll return them to the conversation.  The scriptures were written for our instruction (Ro 15:4). Give us your thoughts on Isaiah 8:20 and Acts 17:11?

"...[S]erpent's personal interpretations and applications of Scripture are are entirely irrelevant, and mean absolutely nothing..."

  Ad hominem.  Truth is truth independent from me.

[The church is sanctified and cleansed by Christ (not the Roman Catholic Church)] "False Dilemma Fallacy."

You removed the scripture from my quote (Eph. 4:14).  The church is sanctified and cleansed by Christ (not the Roman Catholic Church). 1 Co 6:11; Eph 5:26,27.

The dilemma is real.  Your church is an apostate church (Rev. 3:14–22).  They are in their final stages of apostasy (Mt 7:16). 

[The church has been purchased by the blood of Christ (not the Roman Catholic Church).] "Straw Man Fallacy."

You removed the scripture from my quote (Eph. 4:14).  The church has been purchased by the blood of Christ (not the Roman Catholic Church). Ac 20:28; Eph 5:25; Heb 9:12.

[Believers are subject to him (not the Roman Catholic Church).] "False Dilemma Fallacy."

You removed the scripture from my quote (Eph. 4:14).  Believers are subject to him (not the Roman Catholic Church). Ro 7:4; Eph 5:24.  

[Christ (not the Pope) is the foundation stone of his church.] "False Dilemma Fallacy. Both Christ and Peter are "rocks" in different senses..."

You removed the scripture from my quote (Eph. 4:14).   Christ (not the Pope ) is the foundation stone (1 Co 3:11; Eph 2:20; 1 Pe 2:4,5) of his church.  Peter went to the Jews.  Paul went to the gentiles (Ga 2:7).

See:

A Scriptural Response to: Biblical Evidence or Catholics St. Joseph Communication http://vananne.com/culttoasters/Scriptural%20Response%20St_%20Joseph%20Communications_doc.pdf

[Men have always been saved the same way--by grace through faith] "By faith---though not by "faith alone". 

You removed the scripture from my quote (Eph. 4:14).  Men have always been saved the same way--by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9). By faith Abel (Heb 11:4), by faith Enoch (Heb 11:5), by faith Noah (Heb 11:7), by faith Abraham (Heb 11:8), by faith Sarah (Heb 11:11), etc. All died in faith (Heb 11:13). 

Trust in the Lord (Ps 130:5, Jn 1:1).

[Works are insufficient for salvation] "Works alone, or apart from God's enabling grace are insufficient for salvation."

You removed the scripture from my quote (Eph. 4:14). Works are insufficient for salvation (Psa. 49:7, 8; Psa. 127:1, 2; Eccl. 1:14; Isa. 43:26; Isa. 57:12; Isa. 64:6; Ezek. 7:19; Ezek. 33:12–19; Dan. 9:18; Matt. 5:20; Luke 17:7–10; Luke 18:9–14; Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20–31; Rom. 4:1–8 vs. 9–22.; Rom. 8:3; Rom. 9:16, 31, 32; Rom. 11:6; 1 Cor. 13:1–3; Gal. 2:16, 19, 21; Gal. 3:10–12, 21 vs. 1–29.; Gal. 4:9–11; Gal. 5:2, 4, 6, 18; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:3–9; Col. 2:20–23; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 3:4, 5; Heb. 4:3–10; Heb. 6:1, 2; Heb. 9:1–14; Jas. 2:10, 11). Swanson, James ; Nave, Orville: New Nave's. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1994.

Justification is an act of God (not your church). Isa 50:8; Ro 8:33. It is promised in Christ (not your church). Isa 45:25; 53:11. Salvation is an act of God (not your church). Ps 3:8; 37:39; Jer 3:23. Justification is not salvation.

See:

Are We Justified by Works or Faith? Pt 3

[If you do not trust in Christ, you are not a believer.] "Amen. The Catholic Church taught this..."

You removed the scripture from my quote (Eph. 4:14).  If you do not trust in Christ, you are not a believer (Eph. 4:14); You are a make-believer (Jn 10:26,27. Ps 130:5).  No plan or program saves (Gal. 1:6–8).  Jesus saves.  We are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8-9), through faith alone (Eph 1:13; 2Ti 1:10), in Christ alone (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). Roman Catholics deny this (Jude 1:11).  

The Roman Catholic Church points to itself.  Christians point to Jesus.  You know you have departed from historical, biblical Christianity when you begin to worship other things (Ex 20:2,3; De 5:7).  Cults and 'isms do not save.  Jesus saves (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12).

"Every single thing in your post has already been answered---and refuted---in numerous previous posts.  You simply have nothing left."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat).

We have the truth of scripture (Ro 1:16). You have snake oil (Mk 7:13). "Christ's historic church" never departed from the word of God as your apostate church has done. God has never left the world without a witness (Jer. 23:3–8; Rom. 9:27). Find yourself a Bible believing church.

See:

Unbiblical Catholic Traditions
 

[You removed the scriptures from my quote.] "That's because no one cares what you think the Bible means..."

That's because you despise the word of God (Nu 15:31, Jn 1:1, Jer 44:4) and attempt to deceive others (Eph 4:14). Christian are like-minded (Phil 2:2) You do not know the Lord (Jn 16:3).

"Moving on..."

Wrong way (Jude 11).

"Every single thing in your post has already been answered---and refuted---in numerous previous posts."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat).

"You simply have nothing left."

The word of God has much to say (Phil 2:16, Ps 119:162). Too bad you're stuck on stupid (Mt 6:33).

[Quoting me] "-----" 

That's pretty much what your church does with the word of God, too (Eph 4:14, Rev. 22:18–20). They say you become like the your idol. Thoughts, comments, questions on that? 1 Tim. 6:3–5.

"Already answered..."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat)

"See Post #194..."

Or see the word of God (Lk 16:29,31, Pr 6:23; 2 Pe 1:19). When you give up God's word for human reason, you'll believe anything (Jn 8:44). When the Bible says "test all things" (1 Thess 5:12) it does not mean trust Rome (1 Tim. 6:3–5). Men lie (Eph 4:14, Matt. 15:9). God does not (Nu 23:19).

Have you made an idol of yourself? Hab 2:18.

[Quoting me] "That's..."

That's pretty much what your church does with the word of God, too (Eph 4:14, Rev. 22:18–20). You butchered my quote like your church butchered believers (Re 6:9; 20:4).

See:

Reformation Time Line

"I see. [S]erpent is one of those with a psychological need to have the last word..."

Ad hominem. You're projecting again.

"...[Baby] needs his bottle. He can be my guest. He's been answered and soundly refuted repeatedly in previous posts..."

Non causae ut causae (Claiming victory despite defeat).

"He can go ahead and parrot his already-answered rhetoric..."

Your false teaching is refuted by the word of God (Heb 4:12). In hockey you are what we call-- all say no play. You offer nothing but fallacious arguments. You cannot prove your case based on scripture. Your hermeneutic is "believe them".

"...[T]o his heart's content..."

My heart is content (1 Jn 5:13). Yours isn't (Isa 48:22). You wish to reproduce others like yourself (Jn 8:44). Not on my watch (Eph 5:11).

"I believe in the assurance of the believer and I believe in the non-assurance of the make-believer." J. Vernon McGee

See:

Once Saved Always Saved?

"...[I[ncluding his entirely self-defeating "Non causae ut causae" claim..."

"Ouch." ~ E.T. 

"The last---false---word is [S]erpent's."

God's word is the final word (Pr 1:26).

"Moving on..."

Wrong way (Jude 11).

"You ain't got nothing!" ~ Al Capone, The Untouchables 

We know you believe Peter is a rock (1 Cor. 10:4, Eph. 2:20, Matt. 21:42, 1 Pet. 2:8, Isa. 28:16). Do you believe Jesus is a door? John 10:7 How 'bout a vine? John 15:1.*

* Note to Catholics: do not bow at doors and/or vines.

If we were guaranteed to be cleansed from all sins in this lifetime there would be no need of an "age to come" in which forgiveness could be obtained (Matt 12:32).

See:

Hermeneutics

No Mediator

"Jn 6:53–58 eat...drink. Jesus’ point was an analogy that has spiritual, rather than literal, significance: just as eating and drinking are necessary for physical life, so also is belief in His sacrificial death on the cross necessary for eternal life. The eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood metaphorically symbolize the need for accepting Jesus’ cross work. For the Jews, however, a crucified Messiah was unthinkable (cf. Acts 17:1–3). Once again, the Jews, in their willful and judicial blindness, could not see the real spiritual significance and truth behind Jesus’ statements. Moreover, Jesus’ reference here to eating and drinking was not referring to the ordinance of communion for two significant reasons: 1) communion had not been instituted yet, and 2) if Jesus was referring to communion, then the passage would teach that anyone partaking of communion would receive eternal life..."

"12:32 it will be forgiven him. Someone never exposed to Christ’s divine power and presence might reject Him in ignorance and be forgiven—assuming the unbelief gives way to genuine repentance. Even a Pharisee such as Saul of Tarsus could be forgiven for speaking “against the Son of Man” or persecuting His followers—because his unbelief stemmed from ignorance (1 Tim. 1:13). But those who know His claims are true and reject Him anyway sin “against the Holy Spirit”—because it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ and makes His truth known to us (John 15:26; 16:14, 15). No forgiveness was possible for these Pharisees who witnessed His miracles firsthand, knew the truth of His claims, and still blasphemed the Holy Spirit—because they had already rejected the fullest possible revelation. See notes on Heb. 6:4–6; 10:29." MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Mt 12:32

See:

A Scriptural Response to: Biblical Evidence or Catholics St. Joseph Communication

Stop babbling like a pagan (Mt 6:7). Start trusting in Jesus (Eph 3:12).

[Why do you pray to Mary? Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries]: "Nowhere in the Bible do we see believers praying to anyone except God. Jesus taught us how to pray in the Sermon on the Mount. He instructed us to pray to the Father and not to use meaningless repetition (Mat. 6:7-13). Yet Catholics are taught to pray the rosary which is made up of over 50 meaningless and repetitious prayers to Mary." Why do you pray to Mary?

No plan or program can save you (Mk 1:15). No cult or 'ism can save you (Jn 6:29; Ac 20:21). Dead saints can't save you (Ps 106:28). Dracula can't save you (Psa. 16:4; Zech. 9:7). Jesus saves (Isa 63:9; Eph 5:23 . Jesus alone saves (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12).

"[Why aren't these Catholic traditions found in the 1st century Church? Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries]:

Priests offering sacrifices for sins

Indulgences remitting sin's punishment

Church leaders forbidden to marry

Infallible men"

Full text: Why aren't these Catholic traditions found in the 1st century Church?

Response to comment [from a Christian]: [Patricius79 Quote: Heb 8:1,2,3[;]Heb 13:10] "Those don't even remotely address his question."

He does that (2 Pe 3:16).

"Section Outline Eight (Hebrews 8)

The author discusses the threefold security of the New Covenant over the Old Covenant.

Its Sanctuary Is Superior (8:1–2).

The place is better (8:1): It is located in the heavenly sanctuary.
The priest is better (8:2): Jesus himself ministers in this sanctuary.

Its Sacrifice Is Superior (8:3–4).

The levitical priests offered up animals in the earthly sanctuary (8:4).
The Lamb of God offers up himself in the heavenly sanctuary (8:3).

(Heb 8:3, Willmington)...

[Heb 13:10]

A Word about Legalism (13:9–11): What altar and sacrifice should the believer be associated with?

Negative (13:11): Not the altar in the Tabernacle.
Positive (13:9–10): The altar at Calvary."

Willmington, H. L.: The Outline Bible. Wheaton, Ill. : Tyndale House Publishers, 1999, S. Heb 13:9-10

[Did you know that whenever you believe a doctrine, you must also forsake that which opposes it? Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries]: "Scripture reveals that Jesus saves...by faith in Him, not baptism His grace, not our merit by His finished work, not our works by His righteousness, not ours by His one offering for sin, not the Mass by His blood, not purgatory by His obedience, not ours by His Gospel, not our perversion of it" Full text: Did you know that whenever you believe a doctrine, you must also forsake that which opposes it?

Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "[W]hile I admire your endeavor to dialogue with the likes of serpentdove there comes a time when you should shake their dust from your sandals..."

Payday someday (Gal. 1:6–8, 2 Tim. 3:8, Matt. 15:9).

[Which Jesus will you trust? Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries]: "The Jesus of the Bible promises eternal life, the complete forgiveness of sins, a permanent right standing with God and the power to live a victorious life. The Catholic Jesus is a Jesus that was never preached by the Apostles (2 Cor. 11:4). This counterfeit Christ provides only conditional life, partial forgiveness of sins, an ongoing need for priests and mediators, uncertainty, fear and doubt. Those who reject the true Jesus, who is clearly and conclusively revealed in His Word, will be judged accordingly. The Lord Jesus Christ said, "The word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)." Full text: Which Jesus will you trust?

[No one is misrepresenting Roman Catholicism.] "You are..."

Proof please. Eph 4:14

"...as well as every single anti-Catholic source you appeal to..."

Mike Gendron was a Catholic for over 40 years. Is he wrong, too?

"It's an infallible dogma of the church--that if you believe you are justified by faith alone then you are condemned--you are anathema...They don't believe that Jesus finished the work of redemption. When Jesus bowed his said and said 'It is finished' and gave up his spirit--Catholics believe he really meant to say it must now continue. Because what they do through the beck and call of the priest they call Jesus back down from heaven every day 200,000 times a day through the miracle of transubstantiation. They transform the inner substance of wafers into the physical body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ; the priest will lift up the wafer for Catholics to worship this as their true savior. He's laid on the alter to be represented as a sacrificial offering. It is another offering denying again the scriptures that say Jesus offered himself once for all time and for all sin..." Vid. Catholicism vs Christianity by Mike Gendron
 

[Pr 19:5]

"Pr 19:5, 9 For the sin of perjury, cf. 6:19; 12:17; 14:5, 25; 19:9; Deut. 19:18–21." MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Pr 19:5

See:

Roman Catholic Traditions

On Matthew 16:18-19 & The Papacy