Divine Science
Response to comment [from other]: "This thread will begin with the more
specific school of 'Divine Science', a branch within New Thought Philosophy but
will include the full spectrum of associated schools in this genre. While
'Divine Science' was pioneered by Malinda Cramer from San Francisco and the
Brooks sisters from Denver in the late 19th century ... let us open our mind to
the Omnipresence of Spirit, and give 'God' all the glory, honor and power,..for
truly where God is All, there is Only God, and no other existing. Therefore we
uphold the Omni-hood and pre-eminece of divine Presence everywhere in its
infinite immensity."
Your false teaching has a problem. "This basic
premise of New Thought, that God is Good and Omnipresent is based upon
principles of Universal Law as demonstrated and taught by historical figures
such as Buddha, Danika, Lao Tzu, and embodied most perfectly in the person and
teachings of Jesus the Christ and Wayshower."
http://newthought.info/beliefs/ds_history.htm.
Jesus taught no such thing. He affirmed the teachings of Moses (Jn 5:47)--a literal reading of Genesis and a six-day creation week. Your worldview (e.g. worshipping light itself) is in error.
Maybe God made the sun on day 4 to refute the teachings of people like you. When we follow what God has taught in the Bible which has never been proven wrong, we can understand our history. We were created to worship God, not light, not forces (which you never gave a measurement for in previous threads):
"...Where did the light come from? We are not told, but
Genesis 1:3 certainly indicates it was a created light to provide day and night
until God made the sun on Day 4 to rule the day. Revelation 21:23 tells us that
one day the sun will not be needed because the glory of God will light the
heavenly city.
Perhaps one reason God did it this way was to illustrate that the sun did not
have the priority in the creation that people have tended to give it. The sun
did not give birth to the earth as evolutionary theories postulate; the sun was
God’s created tool to rule the day that God had made (Genesis 1:16).
Down through the ages, people such as the Egyptians have worshiped the sun. God
warned the Israelites, in Deuteronomy 4:19, not to worship the sun as the pagan
cultures around them did. They were commanded to worship the God who made the
sun—not the sun that was made by God.
Evolutionary theories (the “big bang” hypothesis for instance) state that the
sun came before the earth and that the sun’s energy on the earth eventually gave
rise to life. Just as in pagan beliefs, the sun is, in a sense, given credit for
the wonder of creation.
It is interesting to contrast the speculations of modern cosmology with the
writings of the early church father Theophilus:
On the fourth day the luminaries came into existence. Since God has
foreknowledge, he understood the nonsense of the foolish philosophers who were
going to say that the things produced on Earth came from the stars, so that they
might set God aside. In order therefore that the truth might be demonstrated,
plants and seeds came into existence before stars. For what comes into existence
later cannot cause what is prior to it..." Full text:
Could God Really Have Created Everything in Six Days?
Response to comment [from other]: "What is false about the Omnipresence of divine Good?"
Have you noticed that our planet is not "good" at all? Our world was created "very good" (Ge 1:31) but after the fall of Adam when sin entered the world, everything changed. Now, the universe if very bad." Men are not good (Ro 3:12). There is one good--Jesus. The creator of all things (John 1:3, 10; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16, 17; Heb. 1:2, 10; Rev. 3:14).
We are saved through him (Isa 63:9; Eph 5:23).
"DS holds to the law of life and its natural expression as love..."
Where is the evidence of this love? (Mt 7:17,18; Php 4:17). Do those who hold to a "divine science" view love more than other people? Where is the evidence to this?
They are unloving because they (like all false teachers) tell lies about the nature of Jesus as given in scripture: who he is, why he came, and how he saves. Deceiving people is very unloving (Mark 13:22; 2 Tim. 3:13).
"Love...Man being its individual expression."
Man is not good. Neither is he loving (Job 7:17; Ps 8:4). He is born in sin (Ps 51:5) for trouble (Job 5:7). Man is totally ignorant of what is good for him (Ec 10:2). He is ignorant of what is to come after him (Ec 10:14). He is hopeless without a personal relationship with the creator of the heavens and the earth (1Co 15:19; 1Ti 1:1).
"Pure Consciousness...which illumines all knowledge, wisdom, understanding, the awareness which includes the totality of creation...."
In the original Greek this is "mumbo jumbo" (1 Cor 14:33).
Knowledge comes from God:
Wisdom comes from God:
Understanding comes from God:
"(Heb. tebunah) (1 Kin. 4:29; Job 12:13;
Prov. 3:13; 21:30) Strong’s #8394: The verbal root of this noun
means “to distinguish” or “to discern.” Thus this noun conveys the
idea of discernment. The Hebrew word is directly connected to the
idea of wisdom in 22 passages, including Prov. 8 where they are both
personified (Ex. 31:3; 1 Kin. 7:14; Prov. 8:1; 10:23). Due to its
close association with wisdom, the word occurs often in Proverbs.
Solomon contrasted understanding with folly (Prov. 14:29; 15:21;
18:2). He also exhorted his son to apply his heart to understanding
(Prov. 2:2). Ultimately all discernment is from the Lord (Prov.
2:6), whose wisdom is infinite (Ps. 147:5; Is. 40:28)."
Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). Nelson's new
illustrated Bible commentary (1 Ki 4:27-28). Nashville: T. Nelson
Publishers.
"Jesus taught that God is light..."
Not as you represent it. When others want credibility they say "Jesus taught...". But rarely do they teach what Jesus actually taught. People had better find out for themselves (Ac 17:11).
God created light (Ge 1:3; Isa 45:7). Man is not to make an idol of it (Ro 1:25; Isa 44:20). We are to worship him (the person of Jesus) not light. Teaching otherwise is a work of the flesh (Ga 5:19,20) not of God.
To "practice the presence of God" as you put it, you will need "koinonia" fellowship (2 Cor 13:14) That means repenting of your sin and receiving Christ (Col 2:6).
"God" is..."
We do not just make God up as we go along. The only God of the heavens and earth is known through scripture. He is: living, personal, relational, good and loving.
"This love is all-sufficient and is the atonement."
Jesus reconciled the justice and mercy of God (Isa 45:21; Ro 3:25,26). Those who put their trust in him will live with him forever. Those who reject him, turning him into an idol as you have done will not (Ro 1:25; Isa 44:20). I notice in your false teaching, you do not speak of God's holiness and man's need to repent of sin. This is commanded by God (who is a person)--not a force, or a light, or any other created or imaginary thing (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30).
"I hold to the spiritual laws of good, life, health, truth, wisdom, beauty, and all that is divine..."
Every good and perfect gift is from above (Jas 1:17). If you do not have the Son you do not have the Father (1 Jn 2:23). Those who are not found in Christ will suffer a second death (Rev 20:14).
Response to comment [from other]: "Have you then made the decision to believe that God can only be known through scripture?"
God primarily makes himself known through his word (Ps 138:2).
[Those who put their trust in him will live with him forever. Those who reject him, turning him into an idol as you have done will not.] "Maybe you should take Jesus' teaching about looking to remove the beam from your own eye a bit more seriously?"
The Christian is to judge rightly (Pr 31:9).
Response to comment [from other]: "Knowledge of 'God' as Spirit-Reality, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omni-Active is its own proof, ....this Very Existence...that is consciously knowing It-Self. "I Am"..."
Man was given language in the garden to communicate with God. We can know our creator and fellowship with him (Ac 17:27). Language was not given for the purpose of capitalizing words and then worshipping them. God is clear (1 Cor 14:33). When we make an idols out of words or concepts, we are not worshiping the living God in spirit and in truth (Jn 4:24, Ro 1:23).
Response to comment [from other]: "...[S]omething as important as religion should have as firm a foundation as the sciences which men have learned to use and to trust."
That "something" we can trust is the Bible:
"...[L]ogic flows naturally from a biblical worldview.
Since we are created in the image of a logical God, we would expect to have
logical faculties. However, logic is not a material entity, so it becomes a
problem for the materialist atheist who denies the immaterial realm. From a
materialistic perspective, a logical thought is the same as an illogical
thought—merely a chemical reaction in the brain. From a materialistic point of
view, then, the perception of logic is due to random processes and has nothing
to do with absolute truth, which is also immaterial.
So in a biblical worldview, logic exists and so does truth, both of which are
immaterial. But in a purely materialistic worldview, there is no basis for logic
or truth to exist, since they are immaterial. And if our brains are the result
of random mutations and natural selection, how do we know that our brains have
evolved in a way that allows us to think and reason according to truth?
To state that logic can yield a truthful result means that absolute truth must
exist, hence God. [When others use logic]...they must borrow from the above
Christian principles..." Full text:
Don’t Creationists Believe Some “Wacky” Things?
Response to comment [from other]: "God is both personal and non-personal (we've covered this) depending on context/reference..."
God does not change (Mal 3:6). He was personal yesterday. He is personal today and he will be personal tomorrow.
"...I've never denied the Personality of Deity in its various personifications."
God is not an "it". He has made himself known in the person of Jesus Christ (Jn 14:9). He can be known through his word (Jn 5:39).
"This Christ nature is in everyone..."
False. Jesus said: " "You are of your father the devil (Jn 8:44)." We are not all of God. Most people are going to hell (Mt 7:14). Christ must be received by faith (Re 3:3).
"[You]...have not opened up to see the greater esoteric, spiritual and universal truths of Mans' nature, function and relationship to the greater cosmic Reality and context of his eternal and divine destiny, especially the potential and capacities in man's spiritual nature. You are therefore encouraged to expand your consciousness."
There he goes again...The Bible is all that we need for Christian living. It is our ABC "How To" Book which leads the believer home to be with the Lord (2 Ti 3:15). The god of your making does not save (Isa 45:20; Jer 2:28). Jesus alone saves (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12).
Response to comment [from other]: "God is spirit..."
True. God is spirit and he must be worshipped in spirit and in truth (Jn 4:24). We were created to know God and fellowship with him. We get to know him through his word.
Response to comment: "'[S]piritual science is a duly arranged method of knowledge..."
It's a lie. All knowledge comes from God. When a man's heart is right, he responds to this truth. Those who reject God's true knowledge are destroyed (Hos. 4:6).
"From true knowledge one can live in its truth..."
All truth is found in the person of Jesus (Jn 14:6). When a man repents of his sin and receives Christ, he can be saved (1 Thes 5:9).
"...which is ultimately enjoying the fruits of the spirit, eternal life, progress, peace and joy."
You cannot claim God promises when you are not one of his own. These fruits come naturally from his children. Fruits of righteousness come by faith in Jesus (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 20, 22, 24) from his obedience children (Deut. 6:25; Job 33:26).
"We are not called to worship a Bible or a book,...or a theology,....but God himself, who is pure spirit."
Worship begins with the word of God (138:2). Jesus is the word made flesh (Jn 1:1). "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Ro 10:17)."
"[T]he only real knowledge that exists,...God-knowledge (the light of being)."
The source of knowledge is God. Knowledge is not
claimed. It is a gift which comes by repentance of sin and trust in Christ
(1 Cor. 12:8). Fear of the Lord is the beginning of
wisdom (Prov. 1:7).
"If you know reality and have the spirit of God..."
You do not. You deny Christ (Phil 2:10).
"...you would agree with the essence of the teaching, and give glory to God."
But you do not give glory to God. You glorify yourself. You use Christian words and act as if you are a teacher. You do not teach the things of God. A believer who posses the gifts you desire will first honor God and seek his righteousness (Mt 6:33).
"Truth is One".
Truth is Jesus (Jn 14:6).
Response to comment [from other]: "[Y]our posts contain nothing open to
discussion--it's simply a matter of your decisions being correct and any
divergent decisions that others make are defined unconditionally as error."
God's word is the final word (Ps. 119:142, 151, 160).
[Judge rightly (Pr 31:9)] "How does this justify condemning freelight as
one who has turned God into an idol?"
Freelight is a false teacher (Gal. 1:6–8).
[Judge rightly (Pr 31:9)] "...anything you don't personally like or
understand."
I understand he teaches bad doctrine. We warn people of smooth talkers who lead
people to hell (Ro 16:18).
Response to comment [from other]: "We are all God's children..."
No we aren't. Jesus said: "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do
the desires of your father (Jn 8:44)." There are children of God and there are
children of wrath (Eph 2:3). When you are not found in Christ, you are the
latter. You must be born again (Jn 3:7). It is the word of God, joined with the
spirit of God that can make you a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). No filthy thing
will enter into heaven (1 Cor 6:9).
Response to comment [from other]: "You mean your 'version' or
'interpretation' of 'Christ'."
There are not versions of truth. There are not versions of Christ. There is one
way, one truth and one life found in the person of Jesus Christ (Jn 14:6).
"[W]here do I deny the 'Christ'? The Christ is the Light..."
Jesus created light. Pagans worship light.
"...Love..."
God is loving. But he hates wickedness (Mal 1:3). He will punish unbelief (Re
21:8).
"...Anointing of God in Man."
Jesus is God and man (Gen. 3:15; Deut. 18:15–18; 1 Chr. 5:2; Psa. 2:7
Acts 13:33. Psa. 40:7, 8; Psa. 80:17; Psa. 89:19; Isa. 7:14–16;
Isa. 9:6; Isa. 11:1; Isa. 32:2; Isa. 49:1, 5; Jer. 23:5; Mic. 5:2,
3 Matt. 2:5, 6. Matt. 1:1, 16, 17 [Luke 3:23–38.] Matt. 1:18,
23; Matt. 8:20; Matt. 13:55, 56; Matt. 22:45; Luke 1:26–35, 38–56;
Luke 2:1–21; Luke 24:39; John 1:14; John 7:42; John 20:27; Acts 2:30
2 Sam. 7:12; Psa. 89:35, 36. Acts 3:22 Deut. 18:15–19. Acts 13:23;
Rom. 1:3; Rom. 8:3; Rom. 9:5; 1 Cor. 15:47; 2 Cor. 5:16; Gal. 3:16
Gen. 12:3; 17:7; 22:18. Gal. 4:4; Phil. 2:7, 8; Col. 1:15; 1 Tim.
3:16; Heb. 1:3, 6; Heb. 2:9, 14, 16–18 vs. 9–17.; Heb. 7:14;
Heb. 10:5; 1 John 1:1–3; 1 John 4:2, 3; 2 John 7; Rev. 22:16).
"Jesus shows us the way to walk in God's light..."
Jesus is the way (Jn 14:6).
"...the true way"
He is the true way (Jn 14:6).
"...of brotherhood..."
We are adopted into his family when we repent of our sins and seek his
righteousness (Mt 6:33). Repentance means turning from something (e.g. idolatry)
and turning toward someone (not light, not forces, not capitalized or emphasized
words or concepts)--Jesus.
"Christ in us" is the hope of glory..."
Christ does not take up residence in idolaters (1 Cor 6:9). He indwells his
children and testifies to their spirit that they are his (1 Jn 1:2). Idolatry
and Christ do not live in the same place (1 Jn 4:4). He cleanses us from all
unrighteousness (1 Jn 5:9). His children keep his word (1 Jn 2:5). They walk
with him (1 Jn 2:6).
"Divine Science gives all glory to God alone."
No it doesn't. It's not divine and it's not science. Lies against the truth do
not glorify God (Jas 3:14).
"You again show your ignorance..."
1 Cor 1:27
"...assumptions."
I assume that the Bible is true.
"...and religious bigotry."
I don't trust religion. I trust a person, Jesus.
"All you bring is a pre-packaged theology..."
Packages won't get a person to heaven. Jesus will (Jn 14:6). The spirit of God
guides the believer into all truth (Jn 16:13).
"...a bunch of scripture quotes."
God's word is the final word (Ps. 119:142, 151, 160).
Those who hate God also hate his word (Psa. 50:16, 17; Prov. 1:29, 30;
Prov. 13:13; Isa. 5:24; Isa. 28:9–14; Isa. 30:9–11; Isa. 53:1; Jer.
6:10; Jer. 8:9; Hos. 8:12; Amos 2:12; Mic. 2:6; Luke 16:31; Luke
24:25; John 3:20; John 5:46, 47; John 8:37, 45; 1 Cor. 1:18, 22,
23; 2 Tim. 3:8; 2 Tim. 4:3, 4; 1 Pet. 2:8; 2 Pet. 3:15, 16; Rev.
22:19).
"...and whole lot of presumptions."
I presume that the Bible is true.
"We enjoy God's omnipresence, here, now..."
You enjoy sin. It will only last for a season (Heb 11:25). You are on the
loosing team (Isa 22:13). Get on the winning team (Ac 17:27).
"...all descriptions of God,...Spirit, Soul, Love, Light, Truth, Reality,
Being, Intelligence."
God is: living, personal, relational, good and loving.
"I'm true to the subject..."
Truly teaching lies.
"I disagree with your analysis of the Bible. It is dogmatic..."
Some men's dogmatism is grown up puppyism.
"...narrow-minded..."
Mt 7:13
"...and pontifical."
The Pope needs a savior, too (Ro 3:12).
Response to comment [from a Catholic]: "Isn't amazing how far traditional society has fallen, that even those who claim to profess a deep belief in Christ have embraced modernism to the point of being unable even begin to grasp the traditional sciences and ideas that were once such a key part of the Christian idea."
I agree with the reformers, desiring a return to the authority of the word of God, who opposed the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. With that said, you will hear Pierac and Keypurr (non-trinitarians) attack both Roman Catholics and Protestants--not for their false teaching--but on the doctrine of the trinity. It is sort of a "throw the baby out with the bathwater" moment.
Satan is alive and active in both Roman Catholic and Protestant churches. See what happens when we depart from the authority of the word of God?
Response to comment [from other]: "Authority is in the Power of Truth itself, the I AM..."
You cannot claim this "power" by reaching out and grabbing it. This power is given as a gift to the humble of heart who receive (δέχομαι) Christ as their savior (Jn 19:11). They have turned from their sin. Rid yourself of a superfluidity of wickedness (Jas 1:21). God does not yield to your attempted power grab (Mt 6:33).
"All the power of 'God' is present, innately... and what Spirit further bestows upon a soul..."
We are born spiritually dead. We must be born again to receive life. Eternal life comes only from an eternal God (Eph 2:5).
"[T]his is the case for all sentient beings open to discover the truth of their existence..."
The truth is men are sinners (Ro 3:12). They are in need of a savior. God is holy.
"...conscious awareness that guides our path."
Sin guides the path of the unregenerate man. Christ guides the path of the believer (Ro 6:18).
Response to comment [from other]: "Christianity closes...minds and kills...spirits, replacing wonder with boring fantasy stories."
People can be so open minded that their brains fall out (Ps 94:11).
The Bible is a never-ending source of wisdom. When you know the Lord, studying his word is never boring (Isa. 34:16).
"The "fall' ...must have happened during the short part of human history in which Christianity...existed."
Have you ever known a Christian?
Everything was "good" (Ge 1:31). Now it is bad (death, disease, suffering) after the fall of man. God made a perfect world not an imperfect one.
Are you suggesting that liberals improve the world? They only bring theft, murder and destruction (Jn 10:10).
See:
What Christianity Has Done for the World
Response to comment [from other]: [Ps 94:11] "I'm positively affirming this as the Word of God - - I'm not mocking or trying to be "clever"...serpentdove - are you a man?"
Why are you quoting our book? By your own admission you are not a Christian (e.g. classified "other"). The Bible is 66 love letters written to those who love God. Read your own mail. A child of God handles the word of God accurately (2 Tim. 2:15). An "other" cannot understand God's word (Rom. 1:21).
Response to comment [from other]: [People can be so open minded that their brains fall out (Ps 94:11).] "Or so close-minded they become religious dogmatists."
I'll take dogmatism over puppyism.
[The Bible is a never-ending source of wisdom.] "As well as other books."
"As well"? Your books and Urantia toilet papers only seek to undermine scripture. The Bible puts them in their place.
"Woe to you experts in the law..."
Again "other". I would just ask for
clarification--why are you quoting our 66 love letters? We love God's law.
We have no problem with God's good and perfect law (Mt 5:18).
Do you? Do you know why God gave the law?
"You would dare to conceive of using the Word of God as a weapon..."
I would do that, yes (Heb. 4:12). Sidebar: What is that creepy, glowing thing that you have as your avatar? Is that an idol? What does "other" mean? Perhaps you are a Mary worshipper?
"...with which to assault another being created in the image and likeness of God?"
The word of God is effectual. I give it out (Is. 55:11). What you do with it is your business.
"You repeatedly reference Bible verses in your polemical rhetoric and then deny your self-made "enemy" the outpourings of God's goodness."
One must acknowledge the bad news (Ro 3:12) before receiving the good news (Jn 3:16). It would be helpful to clarity what you believe--what does "other" mean? How about the basics: Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God? Who is Jesus to you?--lunatic, liar or Lord?
Response to comment [from other]: "Love does no harm..."
Then why do you teach harmful doctrine that leads people to hell? (2Ti 2:18). This is hateful toward God (Re 2:14,15). Your teachings are in vain (Tit 3:9; Heb 13:9). Man must know the bad news (Jn 3:18) and receive the good news (Jn 3:16). It is bad to fail to respond to this truth (Jn 14:6).
"If you think the Bible is the only inspired or relevant book..."
The Bible is the only inspired book. All other books that claim to be inspired which refute the Bible are perversions of God's holy word. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Ti 3:16-17).
Response to comment [from a pagan]: "Any religion could be the right one."
If that is true then Christianity could be the right one. But Christianity says that all other religions are wrong (Jn 14:6).
"If thinking can't lead me to your faith, then what should?"
Some people claim that the problem with the world is a lack on knowledge. The Bible claims that the problem with the world is sin (Ge 3:6,7; Ro 5:12).
"A sensible Christian would at least think an open mind should lead you to it."
Knowledge is not man's problem (Ro 2:15, Ps 19:1, Lk 16:31). Man has heart trouble (Jer 17:9).
Guess how many times the word "compromise" occurs in the Bible?
Response to comment [from other]: "[R]ecognizing God's divine goodness, love, divine reality, supremacy is first order science...Traditional Christianity seems to focus more on the fall, original sin, evil, imperfection, man's wickedness, etc."
It is not the similarities to scripture that I am concerned with. It is where you mix truth with error--like all cults and 'isms--that is of concern (Ga 5:9). God is holy. We are responsible to him. The Bible is all we need to know how to live and how to get to heaven. Bad news (Jn 3:18). Good news (Jn 3:16).
"Love...is ever omnipresent."
God can also chose what not to think about like those who will live in hell. He has done all that he can to save mankind and remain true to his own holiness. God is committed to 100% holiness not 99.99% holiness. Man falls short of his heavenly standard (Ro 3:12). He must be clothed in Christ's perfection to enter into heaven (Ga 3:27).
"All there is, is this One Life, Being, Consciousness."
That is not merging into "One Life, Being, Consciousness..." No (1 Cor 14:33). It is receiving Christ as savior and walking with him (Col 2:6).
[Jn 14:6] "The passage supplied does not prove all other religions are wrong, this is a superimposed interpretation..."
Repent, be saved, then read it again.
"Jesus reassured Thomas that He was the Way-shower, the divine Exemplar..."
Response to comment [from a pagan]: "To borrow words from Celsus again, there is nothing unique to what Christians believe, save that they believe them to the exclusion of other beliefs. The latter is to its discredit, not its credit. To be fair, the last part needn't encompass all kinds of Christianity, but only your brand of it out of the dark ages, which Celsus knew."
There aren't brands of truth (Jn 14:6). There is one truth and everything else is false.
"Sin is a symptom of ignorance..."
Incorrect. Sin is:
"I'll be judged by my nature, not my willingness to believe and obey things, thank you very much."
The verdict is in (Jn 3:18). Throw yourself on the mercy of the court.
Response to comment [from a pagan]: "I think if you connect with a god, it's true enough, wouldn't you say?"
Worship of any other god (e.g. religion, wealth, work, sex, etc.) is idolatry (Ex 20:2,3; De 5:7). Man was created to worship the living and true God (Ex. 20:3; Deut. 5:7; 6:13; Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8; Acts 10:26; 14:15; Col. 2:18; Rev. 19:10; 22:8).
"I don't want to see a man saved whose conscience wasn't enough to make him good..."
Man is totally helpless without God (Mt 5:3).
"If you Christians are so moral, you shouldn't be scared of what you deserve-- let heaven or hell take you for what's in you."
We know that works will not save us.
See:
The inner man is made new in Christ day by day (2 Cor 4:16).
"...St. Peter go down your Biblical checklist..."
Christians will not come into condemnation (Jn 5:24).
"I wouldn't be scared, would you?"
I don't believe that you believe that (Isa 48:22).
Response to comment [from other]: "I don't believe Spirit is limited to this interpretation, that Jesus is the only way (as interpreted/concluded)..."
Do you think all people will go to heaven? The Bible says that few will (Mt 7:14).
"I see Jesus being the way in that He embodies and reveals the "Christ" to us...the glory of God,..the way of love, wisdom, truth,..."
He is the Christ (his divine title), God in human flesh (Jn 1:14). Because of him, the veil was torn (Matt. 27:51) and we can enter into God's presence (Heb. 10:19–22). He is a person--God and man. He cannot be a good man if he was not who he claimed to be--God. That would make him a liar. He is not "a" way. He is "the" way--the one and only way (Jn 14:6).
"...the divinity within Man."
When a person trusts Christ, he takes up residence. He indwells him. His spirit testifies to our spirit that we are his (Ro 8:16). He must be worshipped in spirit and truth (Jn 4:24).
Response to comment [from a Roman Catholic]: [I agree with the reformers, desiring a return to the authority of the word of God, who opposed the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.] "And I agree with the traditionalists who opposed the modernism of the reformers because they knew it would destroy the necessary ritual, community, tradition, authority and symbolism of religion."
What you call "modernism" I call revival and a return to the authority of the word of God. We need another true revival.
[Satan is alive and active in both Roman Catholic and Protestant churches. See what happens when we depart from the authority of the word of God?] "And how did what got into that word get chosen? It couldn't have been through sacred tradition could it?"
You blame corruption of doctrine on Protestants? They sought a return to the authority of the word of God. Roman Catholics had gone way off course due to corruption and greed. That is not standing on historical, biblical tradition. That is perverting God's word (2 Ti 4:3). Read the book of Revelation. You need to find yourself a good Philadelphia, Bible believing church (Re 3:7–13). Can't you discern and see what your church has become? (Re 3:14–22).
See:
"And yet this "revival" quickly saw a decline in Christianity and Christianity society to the modern point of godlessness."
Revival was needed then and it is needed again today. We need a return to study of the word of God.
See:
Do you care more about glorification of the Roman Catholic Church or glorification of God? (Isa 66:5).
"The problem is you place the Bible up as something that simply appeared rather than remembering its real place as part of the sacred tradition..."
I have no problem with tradition if it holds to the authority of scripture. I do have a problem with tradition when it seeks to undermine the word of God (Mk 7:8, Col 2:8).
See:
"...this is how for instance the canon was chosen."
See:
Why Isn't the Apocrypha in the Bible?
Did Constantine Decide What Books Belonged in the Bible?
What Occurred at The Council of Nicea?
Did The Catholic Church Give Us The Bible?
Response to comment [from other]: "Mind and its perfect idea..."
The mind is debased (Rom. 1:28) and defiled in the unregenerate man (Titus 1:15).
""Christ" is the impersonal idea of man..."
God in human flesh. 100% God. 100% man. "For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Ro 8:3-4)."
"The basis of the manifestation of power in the Christ Method of Healing is a realized knowledge..."
Knowledge is not man's problem. Sin is (1Jo 5:17).
"...of the at-one-ment of man with God."
"At-one-ment"?
God is with the man who will humble himself before him, repent of his sin,
and receive him as savior (Ac 16:31).
Hi
Freeli',
More Gnostic teaching? This is old heresy new spin:
"There is...no such thing as Christian Gnosticism,
because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of
belief. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a
Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be
Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian.
Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early
church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as
Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a
dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is
inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition,
Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no
meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.
Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth”
known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis
which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not
from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plain of existence.
Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else
by their higher, deeper knowledge of God..." Full text:
What is Christian Gnosticism?
"We in DS take the basics of Christian doctrine in their metaphorical/metaphysical understandings, and appropriate such within the context of the science (the total system of divine knowledge)."
Which perverts Christianity. "Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plain of existence...their higher, deeper knowledge of God." I don't buy it--nor should I (Ga 1:9).
"How man became depraved, sinful, selfish, can be explained in various ways and according to many theological perspectives."
It can be explained many ways but the Bible explains it by Adam's sin in the gardenGe 3:6,11,12; Ro 5:12,15,19 . Adam's sin changed the world. The consequence of sin is estrangement from God (Ge 3:8; Ps 58:3; Eph 4:18; Col 1:21). Men must come to God on his terms through a right relationship with Jesus to be saved.
"[M]an's true salvation and restoration is in the investment of true knowledge of his origin, purpose, potential and relationship to source."
The source is a person, Jesus. Man's salvation is found only by trust in him (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). This was announced by God after the fall (Ge 3:15).
"We hold the original blessing and goodnes of man..."
We hold the opposite. All men are conceived and and born in sin (Ge 5:3; Job 15:14; 25:4; Ps 51:5).
"...which is ever-radiant in the mind of God."
Jesus said: "You are of your father the devil (Jn 8:44)." We cannot all be children of God (Eph 2:3). We cannot all be going to the same place (Mt 25:46).
"[Y]ou can personalize [Christ] if you wish."
Christ is the second person of the trinity. God is a person. In other words, he has all attributes of personhood.
"[T]he traditional, historical version is accepted as well..."
There are not versions of truth (Jn 14:6). We are not saved by knowledge. We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). The gospel is true or it is not--the gospel is the Bible from cover to cover (1Co 2:13). Only the scriptures illuminate (Ps 119:130) regenerate(Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:23) and convert the soul (Ps 19:7).
"[K]nowledge is very much essential."
The scriptures make wise the simple (Ps 19:7). Helen Keller knew God. She just didn't know his name.
"...[T]ranscended by walking in the light..."
A walk with Lord would require turning from sin (difficult, painful and often heartbreaking) and turning toward someone (Col 2:6).
"[D]eath is only one of many experiences in the spiritual unfoldment and development of the soul."
Death is a consequence of sin (Ro 6:16,21; 8:13; Jas 1:15). Eternal death will be inflicted by Christ (2Th 1:7,8). Christ is the only way of escape from eternal separation from God (Joh 3:16; 8:51; Ac 4:12).
"At the time of what is referred to as death, the consciousness moves into another level of expression..."
Satan would love for people to believe that. There are no second chances (2 Cor 5:8).
"...but life does not cease, for all is spiritual life, eternally."
We were created to live forever and fellowship with the Lord. The soul is purified by obedience to him (1 Pet. 1:22). We will live forever with him or without him.
Response to comment [from other]: [We hold the opposite. All men are conceived and and born in sin (Ge 5:3; Job 15:14; 25:4; Ps 51:5).] "Sorry you have a dismal and demeaning view of yourself."
Sorry that you do not agree with God's appraisal of you (1 Jn 1:10). Admit the bad news. Receive the good news (Col 2:6).
"Paul's teaching is 'gnostic' in nature..."
As Laura Ingraham would say, "Lie of the day."
"You've got a lot to learn, and spitting out scripture verses or quoting...A truly cosmic education requires looking at all possible viewpoints, aspects and dimensions of a subject, especially 'God', the 'soul' and the Universe."
I may not be as smart as you (1 Cor 1:26), but it is the sword of the spirit which is able to cut through your false teaching (Heb 4:12). The word of God was here before you were born and it will be here after you are dead (Mt 5:18).
"I agree that I am a child of God, created in the divine image and likeness, invested with all the light, power, knowledge, goodness and potential..."
True, God loves everyone of us (Jn 3:16).
"...This is honoring God and giving him glory, by true knowledge."
The world does not need smarter people. The world needs better people (Mt 6:33).
"This is affirming your sonship. Being 'true' to the Real You."
Being truthful is admitting that you are a sinner (1 Jn 1:9). God is willing to forgive us of our sin if we will do this.
"Nowhere have I claimed to be sinless..."
That's good because we are all sinners. Our sin will keep us from God. (Ro 6:23). When we are saved, Christ begins to clean us up (Eph 4:24).
"I Am Presence..."
I suppose a Christian would call this the spirit of God indwelling each believer. It is a guarantee to everyone who trusts Christ (2 Cor 5:5).
"His presence...which is everywhere..."
He won't be fellowshipping with those in hell. I would not call that everywhere.
"Only spirit is real."
Yet you still won't name his name (Ps 135:1).
Response to comment [from other]: ""I am" or more properly "I will be."
"I am" is the proper translation . Jesus was clearly declaring to be God when he said this. This is why the religious rulers tried to kill him (John 8:57-59).
"...creation in action!"
The apostle Paul preached "creation in action". Namely, a literal Adam and the fall of man:
"The word ‘gospel’ means ‘good news.’
When Christians talk about the gospel, they are presenting the good news of
Christ’s death and resurrection. As Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15:1–4:
'Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto
you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are
saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have
believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also
received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And
that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the
scriptures...
...For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. … And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (1 Cor. 15:12–45).
Notice that in explaining why Jesus died, Paul went to the Book of Genesis and its account of Adam and the Fall. In other words, one cannot really understand the good news in the New Testament of Jesus’ death and resurrection, and thus payment for sin, until one understands the bad news in Genesis of the fall of man, and thus the origin of sin and its penalty of death..." Full text: What is the Gospel?
"Spirit brings all things into being, out of the substance of itself..."
We have no holiness of our own. All of our holiness put together cannot equal the holiness in God's little pinky. God is holy and he requires perfection (1 Cor 6:9). No man can meet his heavenly standard (Ro 3:12).
"God's names for that matter in the Bible and other scriptures (inspired writings)...enables us to glorify and appreciate God more!"
We do not need the Bible plus. We need the Bible period. As Adrienne Rogers says, "You read other books. This book will read you." It is unlike an other book. The works you cite do not support biblical teachings. They only seek to undermine God's word.
We appreciate God when we acknowledge him for who he is and come his way--through the blood of his son--not our own (Jn 14:6). We cannot come to God any way. Read what happened to Uzzah (2 Sam 6:7). 'We need a proper reverence and awe for God. He is not a light or a force. He is not our "buddy". He is a person and he is holy.
"This is the value of knowledge, both intellectual and spiritual, as the Spirit continues to reveal."
Our value is found in the person of Jesus when we are seen in him. He only fills empty hands.
Response to comment [from other]: "[H]i serp, how's life? I suggest in our dialogues that we both focus on the spiritual insights, universal truths that we agree on."
Respectfully freeli', I don't think that is a good idea. I think that does you a disservice (Eze 33). In the body of Christ, God gives each of us a job. Some jobs are nicer than others. The heart-types are nice to be around. They share the love of Christ. My job isn't as comforting. Have you ever seen the show "Dirty Jobs"? That's my job. Someone called me a kidney or a liver. I get to rid the body of poison (2 Cor 10:4).
"We already know that we have different viewpoints, understandings of God, etc."
The problem is, we have different gods. My God is a consuming fire, conquering all other gods (Heb 12:29). We are on opposite sides of enemy lines. I get my orders from him:
"...schools of thought and doctrines we've accepted as 'true'."
I maintain that there is one truth (Jn 14:6). I've already surrendered to that truth. It is my hope that you will too.
"You see...'God' is right here..."what is", Reality."
God is here. He is living and active in the life of the believer. God is: living, personal, relational, good and loving.
"...same universal consciousness that we all share."
I am committed to honoring God and walking with him. I hope you will too.
See:
"I do recommend the post I sent you in my DS thread, on God's Name - Pastor Ahyh does a great jog at getting into the 'gist' of what God's Name is and means."
It is a good idea to meditate on the names of God in scripture. But you must be willing to follow the God of the Bible. He is the creator of all things.
See:
"How can anyone be saved, inspired, enlightened, informed, trans-formed, progress without knowledge?"
The only knowledge we need is to know that we are sinners who have sinned against God's perfect and holy law (1Jo 3:4). We must come to God on his terms, through the sacrifice of his son. Without the shedding of blood, there is not remission of sin (Heb 9:22). Christ died a horrific death that we deserved. We must trust in his work not our own. You can see, our views are incompatible. All other views are incompatible with biblical Christianity (Jn 14:6).
"...[I]n Hinduism we say that God is "Existence, Knowledge (consciousness) and Bliss" - sat-chit-ananda - in our meditation and union with Eternal Spirit we discover that God is this, in His essence. The Source."
These gods are man-made. They are exactly what you would expect to come from the hearts and minds of men. The God of the Bible is unlike any other (1 Chron 17:20, 1 Cor 1:23).
Bliss can only come from Jesus who conquered death (Phil 4:7). No Hindu god proved his love (Jn 3:16). Put your trust in the God that rolled away the stone. He is risen (Lk 24:6). I hope we win you to our team.
Response to comment [from other]: "I Am" doesn't say much, but about divine being...[T]he assumption that Jesus claims to the be the "I Am"...is false [in my opinion]...[W]e've treated this elsewhere. "
The Jews wanted to kill Jesus for his grammar then, I guess.
"Divine being"? What does that mean exactly? Does "divine being" have a name? Does your doctrine for "divine being" happen to teach exactly what you believe?
"...biased to our own preference"
The gospel is offensive. It says you can't be a drunk anymore. It says you cannot covet other people's wives or property anymore. It should offend you. It says God's opinion is more important than your opinion. Where you differ--you are wrong, not God. The law of God makes a person look in the mirror to see that he is a sinner. If the gospel is not offending you in some way, you do not know it.
"Nowhere did Jesus claim to be God Almighty..."
Of course he did: "I and My Father are one (Jn 10:30)." "He who has seen Me has seen the Father (Jn 14:9)." You're going to have to know him to see the Father.
"Divine being is what God is."
No. He is a personal God. You present a god from your own heart: "Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! (Ezek. 13:1–3)."
Divine Science